Uncovered: Life Beyond

62. Grace for Him, Silence for Them: Power, Patriarchy, and Religious Scandal

• Naomi and Rebecca • Episode 62

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 When news breaks that a respected Christian author has carried on an eight-year affair, the story doesn’t end with the confession. It reveals a familiar reflex inside many high-control religious systems: forgiveness flows upward to powerful men—while people who feel hurt or disillusioned get scolded, shamed, and told to “move on.”  But why is the finger of blame so quickly pointed at those who feel the disappointment most deeply? And what do these calls for instant forgiveness distract us from? 

  • Why “it could be any of us” can function as a warning sign, not a comfort
  • The double standard: why mercy is often extended to powerful men while women, LGBTQ folks, and “rebellious” question-askers get crushed
  • Why shame is such an effective control tool—and how it keeps people thinking with their “downstairs brain”
  • The gendered story we’re handed early: how the Adam & Eve narrative is often told to teach people to distrust women
  • Why pressured forgiveness isn’t forgiveness—and how rushing it can deepen resentment and kill real connection
  • How parenting can move from control to connection—and why that shift matters for breaking cycles
  • To nurture connection, start honest conversations with safe people, trust what you know, and practice curiosity again


Relevant Links

Author Philip Yancey Confesses Affair, Withdraws from Ministry - Christianity Today

What the Story of Adam and Eve Teaches about Communication (@marriageishappening)

Anti-Purity Ball: Jessica Valenti on Fighting Sexualization









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SPEAKER_01:

This is Rebecca, and this is Naomi.

SPEAKER_02:

We're 40-something moms and first cousins who know what it's like to veer off the path assigned to us.

SPEAKER_00:

We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college, and career as we questioned our faith traditions while exploring new identities and ways of seeing the world.

SPEAKER_01:

Without any maps for either of us to follow, we've had to figure things out as we go and appreciate that detours and dead ends are essential to the path.

SPEAKER_00:

Along the way, we've uncovered a few insights we want to share with fellow travelers. We want to talk about the questions we didn't know who to ask and the options we didn't know we had.

SPEAKER_01:

So whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking things up, we are here to cheer you on and assure you that the best is yet to come. Welcome to Uncovered Life Beyond.

SPEAKER_02:

Hello everyone. Welcome back to Uncovered Life Beyond. This is Naomi.

SPEAKER_00:

And this is Rebecca. So it has been a like crazy beginning of 2026 in so many different ways. Have you noticed that?

SPEAKER_02:

You know, I didn't think about it. I just know that every year at the end of the year, I mean I remember back 2016. 2016, it's a dumpster fire, and you know, 2017 is going to be better. And so I kind of think this happens year after year.

SPEAKER_00:

Yesterday, which would have been January 10th, I read somewhere and I didn't check to make sure that this was credible, but I trust the person who posted it. Um they said January 10th, and there's already been 11 mass shootings in the US.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow. And then there was the ice shooting in Minneapolis, which that that takes things to a new level. Yeah. Um, someone was pointing out that the ice agent's footage that showed what was happening before uh he shot her. Um she was, you know, mocking and calling him out and and and but posing no threat, no physical threat. And someone was pointing out that that's like the epitome of Margaret Atwood's saying that men are afraid, they live in fear that women will mock them.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Women live in fear that men will kill them.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, and um the other thing I think about is if women would kill a man every time they were afraid. Can you imagine? Oh my gosh. Can you imagine? Oh my gosh. Like I grew up small town conservative culture, you know, I have been afraid of men often, many, many times. Can you imagine? Yeah. If we would kill a man every time we're afraid of them.

SPEAKER_02:

I guess there's a part of me that also that goes, Wow, imagine what it must be like to go through life not afraid. I know, right? Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, and and then they're not really afraid, but then they choose a career where they're put in stressful situations. And is that the problem? For the first time in their lives, they're having to deal with both they they're holding a lot of power, but someone dares mock them or not trust them. I mean, it's so it's so authoritarian. Yeah, but the other part of it is that surprising me, and particularly I'm surprised when it comes from people with anabaptist background, but then I'm not surprised, but they're talking about, you know, well, this is what happens when you don't um follow the directives of authority. And I'm like, since when is not following the directives of authority permission to kill? Yeah, a capital offense. Yeah. But do we not teach our kids from young up for instant obedience? You have to have instant obedience, or you're gonna get spanked. Instant obedience, or you know, severe consequences.

SPEAKER_02:

So rebellion is as a sin of witchcraft.

SPEAKER_00:

And then the more I thought about it, the more I was like, well, dang it, that's the whole point, isn't it? Yeah. And and Anabaptists are wrapped up in this. Yes. Anabaptists believe that perhaps instant obedience, or if if you don't obey, that death might be justified. Justified. And that that breaks my heart.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it does, because that that sets up a whole population for horrible, horrible things.

SPEAKER_00:

And since we're starting off on such a sad note, so Philip Yancey, huh?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. You know, on one hand, on one hand, this is making a big splash, and on the other hand, you know, it's just more of the same.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, we almost have spiritual leaders falling at the same rate of I was gonna say mass shootings, but that might be a bit of an exaggeration. But the past several years have not been very, very good.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. And and I would my question is it's a question, is has anything really changed other than light being shown on these actions? Like, has this been happening all along? I think I think so. Yeah. So just in case anyone has not been online um or has not been or if somebody's coming back to this years in the future, here's a quick recap of what we're talking about. Philip Yancy, who's this very um renowned Christian writer, just this week confess to having an affair uh for eight years.

SPEAKER_00:

And he's now eight years, people, eight years people.

SPEAKER_02:

And was that was it ever clarified? Is this eight years up to this point? Or was it or is it a lot has not been clarified?

SPEAKER_00:

There's a lot of speculation.

SPEAKER_02:

There's a lot that's not being said. That's not being said. Um, but you know, if somebody comes on this episode, how many years in the future and is is yeah, needing to know what we're talking about exactly. That's that's the context for this. And I think there's a lot of the kind of response or the the dismay uh at this news has a lot to do with his persona. And when I say persona, I don't even mean that like in a false kind of way, but over the decades of his writing, he has his voice has been a very compassionate, intellectually honest voice. I mean, he is open to talking very honestly about doubt and suffering and all these hard things that so many in that environment kind of want to sweep under the rug.

SPEAKER_00:

He's like the proverbial good guy of Christian culture. Um, like have Mark Driscoll on one end of the spectrum, Bill Gothard on one end of it with over here with Mark Driscoll, Philip Yancey is on the other side, exactly. Gracious, um, soft spoken, bridge builder, yes, yeah, all the things, and in some ways, to the point, I've been curious how it's working for him. What do you mean by working for him? Christian culture doesn't really like that oh right personality, that with that that graciousness, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like take a stand, man, call evil evil.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. And and um, and that's uh I agree, I agree. And I I wonder it it's it's interesting to me because he is on that end that he's been as successful as he is. So what is surprising to me even more than the dismay at this news is the number of very conservative voices who are coming to his defense. And that's really or or not, they're not defending the actions, but they are coming at those the folks who are dismayed and disappointed, and coming at them and demanding that they forgive. And that's really what we want to talk about here today, that it's is that reaction to this news. And so we're not here to call for a book burning or canceling him. I think he's he says he's withdrawing from public ministry anyway. Um it's the public reflex that we're gonna talk about.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, I think after this type of thing, the emotions are always the same. And and and the emotions are valid, but you have this sense of grief, disappointment. Um, you have confusion, you have like, what the heck is going on? And I think those responses are so normal and so valid. There's others that feel sad, but they're not really, you know, affected by it personally. And I'm kind of starting to wonder at what point is our response to these leaders having moral failures going to feel like another gun shooting.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

We've kind of become desensitized to that, which I think is horrible and sad. I'm afraid at some point we're going to become desensitized to the amount of spiritual leaders who simply well, and looking at what these responses of other Christian leaders uh have been.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, it you would kind of get the feeling that's what they want, that they they they are wanting to normalize this. That's you know, sin leveling is the term that's used. God's all sin. We all sin, nobody's sin is worse than another, you know, all this. And they are less concerned about the betrayal. Yep, it could be any of us, then than the harm it's done.

SPEAKER_00:

And the fact that they're openly admitting that it could be any of us should scare us to death. Well, this is the thing.

SPEAKER_02:

Do they hear what they're saying? Do they I I I wonder sometimes if they realize just how much of their own motivations they're revealing. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And if if in fact, if in fact these spiritual leaders all believe that, quote, it could be any of us. I don't understand why people stay in the church. Yeah, yeah. If we cannot trust our leaders and our husbands to behave themselves and have a decent moral just to to to live up to their moral claims. Right. Then why why why do we believe in the church? What are we doing? Yeah. What what what are we doing? Right. Particularly when these same people are so vicious towards the LGBTQ community. And let me tell you who else they are not kind to. When women have moral failings, they do not respond the same way. Oh. When women are abused, when their own men have abused women, yes, they aren't met with the same kind of redemption and forgiveness and grace and no. This redemption, this forgiveness we're talking about is is exclusively for the men and the leaders.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, it's it's like forgiveness that only goes upward. And it's interesting back in the day when in the um thick of my deconstruction, and this is back in the early days of the internet, um, and and and I say that because of uh I can just see that web page where I found this article, and it was like those, you know, old school links. Um, but it was um it was talking about forgiveness, and this person was making the point, and and he's coming at it from um from the point of you know of the view of a believer who who made the point that whenever Jesus talked about forgiveness, it was always about someone in greater or the same position of power forgiving, and it was never someone in with less power being asked to forgive someone with more power. Yeah, like Jesus never talked about that. And yet that's the way that forgiveness is wielded like a weapon in in so many of our institutions.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, and I even think about the way. Um, do you remember Ray Boltz? He was a big um um contemporary Christian music singer um who came out gay, he was canceled that fast. Yeah, um, we have Amy Grant, who went through a divorce, canceled that fast. We have Beth Moore, who just questioned some of the traditional Baptist beliefs, canceled. But we have these men who have affairs who say horrible things about women who abuse kids.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and we're supposed to forgive them. We know the drill. It's so it's we we hear it so often rather predictable. You have a confession and then uh calls for grace, and then we praise him for his humility. Never mind if this uh confession was voluntary or forced or after eight years. After eight years. So there's praise for this humility, and then the institution scolds the uh there's a subtle scolding or overt scolding of folks who were who are disappointed and disillusioned by the failing and and this pressure to just move on very quickly. I mean, it's like spiritual bypassing on steroids. And and it's the timing of these calls and the pressure that's put on people to forgive that's the issue that uh I think is uh probably most hurtful because yes, we know that all people make mistakes and some people even do really horrible things, but it's the denial of it, it's saying get over it. That's really that secondary trauma, is where the disillusionment just really goes to another level.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, and let's be clear all people make mistakes. Saying something in the heat of the moment and later saying, Oh shoot, I shouldn't have said that, is not the same type of mistake as having an eight-year affair.

SPEAKER_02:

Exactly. 100% let's be very clear about it. I yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I guess my point is the the secondary. Right, right. The secondary harm.

SPEAKER_00:

But yeah, go ahead. And let's be very clear. Some people are saying, well, you know, at least he stepped down. He is what 70 some years old.

SPEAKER_02:

73, I think, something like that. And he has Parkinson. And he and his wife have been preparing for her to care for him during his end of life.

SPEAKER_00:

I am really curious how this would sound if he was 40 or 50. Yeah. So before I even give him a lot of credit for stepping down, I'm kind of like, Yeah. Wasn't it the graceful way to save his reputation?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Well, he was nearing retirement age anyway, you know. So, you know, and and I think that when we name this pattern that's so familiar, where a leader falls and then the disappointment, the the dismay is chastised, or you know, we're we're chastised for that, then when we understand this is a predictable pattern and we can put a name to it, that kind of puts a shield, I feel, around me so that I instead of feeling shame, it's like the shame bounces off that that shield. We because we can step back and we can go, wait a minute, wait a minute. This is not just about my personal failing. This is this is a system, a self-reinforcing system.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And there's a lot more going on. And and and in a lot of ways, it's just another form of gaslighting. I mean, and and calling spiritual bypassing spiritual maturity, right? For lack of emotions.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, like I've been reading a lot of or seeing a lot of comments like this is why I follow God, not man. Or this proves or reminds us that we shouldn't idolize our leaders. The disappointment, the heartbreak reveals misplaced faith. And what that automatically does is it shames the victim, it shames the audience, it shames the people who um found comfort and grace in his message. And it also, and probably the biggest part of this, is it once again protects the system, it protects the leaders from accountability. And I am puzzled and and fra kind of frightened at a system where those in leadership aren't horrified. Those in leadership should be horrified that this happened for eight years.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And these are folks who have platformed him, right? These are folks who have promoted his work, who have, I am sure, plagiarized lots of his material in their sermons. Let's be real. And I think this is just one more example of how dangerous shame is. And and I I, man, if there's one thing that I could go back and tell my younger self, is watch out for shame as a motivator. Because, and and watch out for the person who uses shame as a motivator. That's like a walking red flag that someone is trying to put you on the defensive. Because once we come from a place of shame, we are thinking with our downstairs brain, and we are, you know, we go into self-preservation mode. And we are not, it keeps us from seeing clearly. And it's quite effective.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, shame, shame is what gets people to respond at an altar call. A hundred percent. Shame is what gets people to walk the line and repent and and and come back.

SPEAKER_02:

And instead of focusing on our values or our higher aims, the most noble part of our ambitions, as it were, we're now coming from um, we're just trying to avoid criticism. And when you live life that way, man, A, it's miserable, and you never get it right because people will always find new ways to criticize you. Right. And you'll always be criticized. And like it's like the one of the most effective superpowers is to be able to deflect criticism from people who want to shame you just to control you, people who are not actually invested in your best interests.

SPEAKER_00:

And it's kind of um um eye-opening when you think about the ways that many of us were raised to follow authority. Critical thinking was kind of Shamed. Critical thinking was not something that was encouraged. Critical thinking was being rebellious. Yes. Asking too many questions was chast. We were chastised for asking too many questions. For them now to say that, well, you shouldn't have trusted these people, or well, you shouldn't, you know, um you shouldn't have idolized him.

SPEAKER_02:

I guess this reveals something about you that you were idolizing him.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I mean, and let's let's like something that I've been thinking about is the first Bible story that we are taught is telling us that women can't be trusted. Silly little Eve there in the garden. It just wasn't good enough for her. Oh no, she listened to the serpent and look at Adam. She got Adam into trouble. And we are taught from the youngest kid in Sunday school, we're taught not to trust women.

SPEAKER_02:

And that the most dangerous thing for a man is to believe a woman.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So we're taught, we're taught to trust men. Yeah, absolutely. And then when we do, and it doesn't go well, it's they still find a way to put it back on us. Marriage is happening is an IG account that I love. And they had a really good reel uh on this point. And we'll have to link it in the show notes. These ideas that get so deeply embedded in our view of the world, the way we are our the way we understand things, like these are hard to question and they hardly ever get questioned because they are so deeply embedded and we're not conscious of them.

SPEAKER_00:

And over and over I remind myself stories are told for a reason. Yes, yes. In religion, in philosophy, in urban legends, urban legends, all of them. Stories are told for a reason. And the way that stories are told are also for a reason. And the story we're told regarding Adam and Eve is not out of a vacuum. It is not by mistake. And I think it is high time for us to start challenging some of those narratives.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. Again, as we said, Yancey is just the situation of the moment. Uh so many of these things could be said about so many other similar situations. But I think one thing that makes Yancey's situation particularly noteworthy is like, so when they're saying these things, like, well, you shouldn't, I guess this shows that you were idolizing or you know, trusting in man and blah, blah, blah. Yancey was like the last person to cultivate that kind of adoration. Like he got it, but he got it by being, he didn't get it the like being self-aggrandizing. Like that was not his persona. And I'm not saying I obviously never met the person. Maybe he's obnoxious in person, but like the public persona was not that he was self-aggrandizing and that he was not looking for idol worship. Like he was not, he was not calling for that kind of thing, like so many do. And I could name names. So to now turn around and tell the people who are disappointed that they were, yeah, they were idolizing him. And I don't know, there's just a special kind of coldness, um, disregard, detachment to say it about him.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. And let's be really clear. We're told to trust these men, and then when they fall, we're told that we worship them or that we idolize them. No, we were told to trust them. We were told to trust our leaders. Don't turn around and throw that at us or or follow God, not man. These guys are the people who are telling us who God is. Exactly. Maybe we should start asking how they so easily create God in their own image.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, you know, they might have a tiny little point there, but then my question is if that's the truth, what are we doing?

SPEAKER_02:

Right. Every other day of the year, they're telling Oh, they're demanding.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Worship.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, or at least they're demanding um every other day of the week. If we're not following these men, we're called rebels.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And we're pushed out of the church. Yeah. Because they are the conduit for God.

SPEAKER_00:

And the other one that makes me insane, like makes me insane. The devil really wants these men. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. Yes. Isn't that amazing? The devil doesn't tempt regular people, he just tempts the leaders. Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, maybe instead of it's the devil, maybe it's power and greed getting to their heads. I mean, capitalism is alive and well in the Christian industry. How many billboards do we need out there for God? If there were as many billboards out there for um Islam or for Buddha or whomever whatever other religion you want, the Christians would be dying. Oh, I absolutely. So, no, don't tell me that the devil really wants these men. Let's talk about unchecked power, unchecked greed, and let's acknowledge how much harm this religious system has done. And for years, I've been saying that these leadership programs are problematic. John C. Maxwell, seriously, I don't believe in canceling people. I think his books need to be burned. He took a generation of white men, he probably took two generations of white men and convinced them that schoolyard bullying is the new form of leadership, and the church fully embraced this.

SPEAKER_02:

He walked so these dude bros and the manosphere could run.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, exactly. And almost every leadership course out there has elements of his training. They just re branded. Yeah. And it's working for them. It's working for them. That's the part of it that makes me insane. It's working for them. And we call it godly leadership. Yeah, no, I don't know. Let's not blame the devil for your own mess.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, and we can also think about how this call for instant forgiveness works for these people who are called for instant forgiveness, right? The people in power, because it minimizes the harm done to women. I mean, there is Janet Yancey, who has been married to him for over 55 years and who is now getting ready to be his nurse in the end of life. And she says she's standing by her man, you know, standing, standing by her, her, her commitment. And you know what? Nobody else wants to wipe his butt. Yep. And if women don't instantly forgive and stay in their role, who's going to do that caretaking? I think they don't want to do it.

SPEAKER_00:

And let's be really clear here. This is not shaming Janice Yancey for her decision. If in fact it is her decision. But if she decides to kick his ass and leave him, she should give it be given the same amount of grace, the same amount of appreciation. Understanding, understanding all the time. Support. She should be allowed. Any woman should be allowed to decide for herself if she wants to stay or if she wants to go.

SPEAKER_02:

It's just the social pressure. And sometimes it's more overt, sometimes it's more subtle. Right. But the the social pressure is there. Um, because man, it is so much more convenient for everybody if she just puts up with it. Right, right. And so by demanding this instant forgiveness, it minimizes harm done to women like Janet Yancey and so many other women. Right. It praises women for forgiveness while ignoring the trauma. I mean, maybe, you know, maybe it's not eight years of of adultery, but maybe it's 55 years of being disregarded and being disrespected.

SPEAKER_00:

Let's be serious. You can't be in a relationship for eight years with that type of secret and have felt cared for, seen, respected. Oh, absolutely. Late.

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. And how it works.

SPEAKER_00:

And I think it's the secret keeping that we allow the one with power to have that is perhaps the most dangerous. Anytime you have power, and I I I mean, I think it's often shows up in parent child. It shows up in husband, wife, it shows up in church leader, church attender, even in like the FBI, you know, where they're investigating things. But the one with the less power, so the child, the wife, the church attender, whomever, is expected to have total honesty, totally transparency. We're not allowed to have any secrets, but then it's the parent, it's the husband, it's the church leader who withholds information. We call it prudent. You know, no, it's actually just keeping secrets.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Or discreet is another word. Yes, discreet. Yeah. And this is codified in our uh even in our employment situations, you know, because like it's um good form to give your employer at least two weeks' notice. But so many states have at will employment that they can let you go in a moment's notice. I know someone who had a job offer for what was essentially a dream job, but then, you know, in the their current job, it was fairly, it seemed fairly stable. And this person even checked in with their boss to make sure that that things were good. And so passed up on this dream opportunity for what seemed like the safer bet of secure employment. And like within a month or two, they let him go. And I don't know what all was going on there, but that kind of thing is like totally um, we don't blink an eye at it. But again, it's it's that thing of who gets to have the secrets, who gets to have the information and and what they do with it and how they weaponize it.

SPEAKER_00:

And who has the information holds the power. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, and I think it would behoove us to really take a good look at that. It's okay for a child to withhold information if they feel like that's what's needed. It's okay for a wife to withhold power or hold withhold information. If once gut tells you to withhold the information, listen to your gut. It doesn't have to be manipulative, it does not need to be um underhanded. Right. It can be a form of autonomy, yeah. And I think oftentimes when secrets are told, the one telling the secret, particularly when they hold authority, are looking to alleviate themselves from their guilt. Oftentimes, repentance is done for the person who has been harming, it is not for the person who has been harmed. Let's be clear about that. But and that's and that's exactly what forgiveness is. So there's a very cynical part of me who wants to say, of course, Yancy wants to repent now. He's looking at retirement, he's looking at illness, he doesn't want to die with this on his hands. And while that's cynical, and while obviously I don't know that that's his logic, it is very fair for anyone who is struggling or hurting or confused or disillusioned to sit in that. Absolutely. Without any shame or without any guilt. And whatever the situation, even if it isn't Yancy, if it's something else, someone else, you know, whatever, those feelings are always valid. And I think sometimes when we sit in it, we get clarity. And I think that's what leadership is afraid of. When we get clarity about the pattern, when we get clarity about how the shame is being weaponized, when we get clarity about what we know, about what we see, about what our gut is telling us, that is scary to those, to the system. Yes. Absolutely. And we can call it patriarchy, we can call it um the system, but I think when we boil it down, it really comes down to our church systems, our religious systems, and that is closely tied to what we call faith. That is what we call faith. And so it only makes sense that that creates confusion, and that confusion is not sin, that confusion is not trusting man rather than God. That is part of the normal human experience. Let's put invalidating that.

SPEAKER_02:

Let's quit invalidating it, and I think that clarity can also lead to holding people accountable. And that's one of those things that these systems do not want for the people in charge.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, I have long, and I think in one of my college classes, I took a um rhetoric of God class, and I think it was in that class where they talked a lot about, you know, the God within us, and that God is. And those verses and those um ideas make the whole notion of searching for God and finding God invalid. God is, God is within.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And when we lean into that, when we recognize the divine wherever we find them, it diminishes the need for these spiritual leaders. And when the we don't have a need for these spiritual leaders, we chip away at their platform, we chip away at their pocketbook, their the monopoly they have on our attention, yeah. Yeah, security. I really think it is time that we we talk about wanting autonomy for ourselves, for our careers, for our bodies. We also need spiritual autonomy. We don't need these men telling us who God is.

SPEAKER_02:

And if anyone has studied any Anabaptist history, I know that statement that is peak Anabaptism.

SPEAKER_00:

And the more money someone is making off of telling me who God is, if their paycheck rests on telling me who God is, I'm not interested. Which is different from what I believe a pastor really should be. A pastor is about bringing comfort, about bringing friendship, about reminding you that God is, that God is within. Your pastor should not be the vehicle to God. And if your pastor's acting as if he is or as if she is, then there's a problem. And I think most of us see our pastors as a vehicle to God.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, and that was um kind of the point in that reel that we both saw where it talked about what makes was talking about evangelicalism, but I think it it applies so broadly in in the 20th and then into the 21st century. What was unique about it and how you know it has morphed into a political movement was not the beliefs, not the dogma, I mean, not the the doctrine, it was the structure. And and it's a structure of one person at the top who is call is speaking for God, quote unquote, calling the shots. It's a consolidation of power.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, all these churches, none of them have the same theology. Oh, no, none of them have the same doctrine.

SPEAKER_02:

No, they all have the same damn system. Yeah, except some maybe uh vote deacons indifferently, and that's a big deal to them.

SPEAKER_00:

But or practice a lot or not lot. A lot ordination for those who don't understand the lot.

SPEAKER_02:

That's that's insider anabaptism, insider Amish Mennonite church structures.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, I wish I would remember where I read this, but a lady was speaking, and she was talking about how the world sells women's bodies, um, nakedness sexualizes us. And then she was talking about how the religious institutions do the reverse, they try to veil, they try to um silence, they try to diminish and make us invisible. And she said, nakedness and veiling are just two sides of the same coin. And I can't stop thinking about that. And I think she's right. It's both for gain and it's both for someone's benefit, and and both are imposed on women, right?

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And and women have to comply in order to get what they need to survive.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Purity culture and the hypersexualizing of women. And I'm not talking about sexual expression because that's the thing. Both of these systems are are adamantly opposed to women owning their own sexuality and women deciding if they want to cover up or not. That's the offense. That's the greatest offense is women choosing what they want to do individually. I think it's such an important point. I think we need to talk more about what it means to let consequences stand in the face of this kind of betrayal or failing, moral failing and moral beyond just sexual failing. Because I think we have been, so many of us have been conditioned to focus on the forgiveness piece and beat ourselves up for not being forgiven. And then when we feel resentment, then we beat ourselves up for feeling resentment. And all the while the consequences are not being felt by the person who earned them. And I am still learning what that means and what that looks like because it's like a very weak muscle. But I think believing in ourselves, believing in what we see, and refusing to play into that shame cycle are important for steps to letting consequences stand when someone does harm.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, letting consequences stand though is really uncomfortable. I mean, like think about think about the way, well, let's start talking about with the way we raise kids. If they get spanked, it's over. You you the act was committed, it was scolded, you reprimand them, you punish them, it's over. There's not the discomfort of sitting in the pain caused or the harm done. If your spouse hurt you, if your spouse or your significant other, you know, what whatever it is, said something really hurtful to instantly forgive, you don't again. Don't have to sit in the discomfort and in the pain of what happened. And the one with power doesn't have to sit in the discomfort of the consequences of the consequences of the split in the relationship or the divide in the relationship. And sometimes sitting in that discomfort is often well, it's not sometimes often. It's called resentment, it's called bitterness, it's called an unforgiving attitude. But I think sitting in that discomfort and in that pain is probably one of the most informative things you can do. And I think that's also why the same patterns repeat. You get into the same type of relationship. You get into the it's what you're familiar with, it's what you know, and we don't give ourselves time. And something I am personally really learning is when I sit feel resentful, it is a clear sign that my boundaries have been violated. So instead of shaming the resentment, let's look at what boundaries have been violated and why they're being violated.

SPEAKER_02:

And sitting with that discomfort can be really helpful in breaking the cycles in that way. Like we say, why don't women get out of abusive, or when I say abusive, I'm including emotionally abusive, you know, just relationships. And why do they stay with this guy who's not respecting them or is not, you know, treating them the way he should? Why does she just stick stick with it? I think when we rush to forgiveness, it's like it's bypassing that discomfort. When the longer we sit with the discomfort, the more real it becomes. And the more we go, wait, this is not the way we I want to live. This is not the life I want. This is not the life I want to model for my children. Something's got to give. And I think if we can help young children learn to sit with that discomfort, not as like a punishment kind of thing, but more as a like, yeah, this sucks. Man, not what we wanted to happen. And and acknowledging the pain that makes me feel this way, you know, all that stuff. Maybe by the time they are young adults and heading out into the world, they will be less susceptible to people who want to weaponize that against them. Or uh maybe they'll be less susceptible to weaponizing it against others. There's so many relationships where it's this rush to forgiveness that really keeps those involved from dealing with real issues and actually being better off for it.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, I think the point of uh sitting with your kid, sitting with people in the discomfort of their actions is so important because I think oftentimes our our knee-jerk reaction is to either make people be isolated or abandon. If if harm has been done, we we want to either abandon them or pretend it didn't happen. And I think the whole idea of sitting with someone in their pain and the consequences of their action is so important. Now, I don't think it's your job to do if it's been if you're the one who's been harmed. Let's be very clear there. But but I do think that when we can do that to a friend, to a coworker, to to our kids, when we can say, Yes, what you did was harmful, it's really uncomfortable, it sucks for you, it sucks for the person you've harmed. Let's sit in that together. I think it's such a beautiful um reflection of both who we are and who they are and what their value is. And that is where we can say we all get it wrong. Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_02:

And because it's not about rubbing it in. We're not talking about that. We're talking about sitting with it as an avenue to repair, you know, as as as a pathway to um restitution or whatever, whatever repair looks like. But forgiveness that is pressured is not forgiveness. I mean, there's so many definitions of forgiveness out there. I'm not really I'm not really interested in um defining that whichever definition of forgiveness you want to go with, if it's pressured, if it's demanded, that's not genuine.

SPEAKER_00:

This comment we've all heard many times. But I said I was sorry. Yes. I once heard a therapist respond to that, and they said, you know, if you have apologized and it keeps coming up, the person you've harmed doesn't feel like you have truly seen the damage and the pain you caused. And as long as the person that you've apologized to needs to talk about it, you need to be open to talking about it because you haven't fully done the work of restoration yet. And that's something I think about a lot. When I hurt someone, it is not my job to determine. I don't have the right to determine when restoration has been made. I need to humbly show up and keep doing that work. And I so often think of Brene Brown's marble analogy, and I know I've said this before, but we need to keep putting marbles into other people's jars, into the jars of those we love. And when you hurt someone, you take those marbles out, and it is your job to put the marbles back into the jar. And to demand forgiveness, to demand respect, to demand a relationship without doing that work is just immature. It is not healthy, it's lazy.

SPEAKER_02:

It's lazy, it's lazy. And and also let's be clear, this is an intimacy killer, like an intimacy here in the broadest sense of the word. I mean, that's a connection killer, maybe be a better way to say it. And I think this is an important point because so often from the outside, it's easy to appear peaceful. Oh, right. Nobody's fighting. Yeah. But if nobody is fighting because they've been forced to forgive, that's that's that's just a train wreck waiting to happen. It's it's it's pretending. I mean, it's it's it's a fake relationship. Like that's just not not artists. I don't have the words uh to to say just how performative it is.

SPEAKER_00:

But doesn't that really encapsulate what you see happening in religious circles?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, this is the thing. There doesn't need to be a law that says Janet and Yancey needs to stand by her man. She, I am sure, and I don't know her personally, but I'm gonna make a wild guess that she is very well acquainted with the social pressures within these religious circles that she moves in. And and let me also say divorce is no matter how necessary it is, it sucks. Like I support any woman who makes a pragmatic decision that she's gonna stay in a less than ideal situation because from the outside I have no idea what really is going on. Right. And and I and I trust her to make the right decision. But we can't ignore all the social pressure to perform a peaceful relationship. And I don't know what it will take for us on a broad scale to understand that connection is impossible without that authenticity and forced forgiveness is a fast track to resentment and artifice and pretending.

SPEAKER_00:

And you know, maybe that is a huge or maybe that's the question to ask. Do people want connection? Do these leaders want connection? What what is what is it that we want? And I think many times when you get caught up in that system, many, many of our leaders are not interested in connection. They want money, they want fame, they want power, they want control. Control, yeah. And and and I think it's so um, I've been kind of giggling to myself, you know, about these these um goals that these big churches have. They want to do, you know, this many church plants and this many years, and they want to do this for God and that for God. And and it's like, since when does God need you to do anything for him? Got empires to build. Right. So much of it is the the the quote leader's own ambition, it is his own, their own um pride and ego and what they want to prove. And I think, I don't know, guys, I think we need to be asking a lot more questions. I think we need to be doing a lot more um reflection on patterns we've noticed, patterns we've participated in. And I think we need to be more willing to sit in the pain of harm we've done and harm that's been done to us. This isn't wallowing, this isn't taking up the root of bitterness, this is simply being honest about our experiences.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, I went into parenting wanting connection with my children. Um, but of course, even though I knew I didn't want to go into it with the kind of punitive approach that was modeled for us, what I didn't realize was that I was still going on that assumption that I was supposed to control my children.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And you know what? That did not go so well. And you know what? There are some families where eh, it somehow it works. I don't know what magic, but let me tell you the all the sticker charts in the world, all those techniques on the mommy blogs didn't work for us. And it wasn't until I learned how to start connecting with my kids that things shifted in our home in a major way. And I just want to say to folks who maybe aren't even feeling better after this episode, I do hope you feel less alone. But certainly if you're uh confused, if you're angry loudly or quietly, uh if Philippi Yancey's story in the news uh is reopening old wounds and you're thinking about what role forgiveness plays in all of it, uh I invite you to think about what dynamic you're aiming for. Are you aiming for connection or control or being controlled? Because I think that can clarify so many things because it takes two people to connect, and uh, it only takes one person to control. So if you want connection, the other person has to be in on it too.

SPEAKER_00:

These days I am truly second guessing and re-evaluating what I think the role of leaders play in my life. And that's difficult for me to say because I love reading books. I've got stacks of books.

SPEAKER_02:

Can I just point a clarification? When you say leaders, are you talking about people of influence? Yeah. Because leader can be someone who's a boss, it can be, you know, a very formal role, but yeah, it can be a book, you know, by by someone who is supposed to be credible, but someone who is seeking to influence you in some way. It's not necessarily people that you have a formal relationship with that you owe something to, right? Right. The people who just want to tell who who want to tell you, want to influence, right? Want to influence you to do what to tell you what to do.

SPEAKER_00:

But I think many times leaders at work, leaders in the community, leaders in the church, or the influencers on Instagram or those writing a book, whatever you have, yeah, are there for the money, the platform, and the power. They're not there for the connection. And I'm also realizing they don't know any more than I do. They just run their mouths more, they make more racket, and they're usually more charismatic. So when I see these leaders, it gives me the space to appreciate the ones who truly want connection and to let go of those who want their fame. And I don't have to be another person who gives them a like on social media. And I think it it's a process of taking back your own power. We don't have to have these leaders in our lives to lead a decent life. We can have these conversations with our friends, we can have these conversations with our neighbors, we can have these conversations with a coworker and come up with new ideas and new ways to think about things. And I think it is high time we re-evaluate what we consider a leader. Yeah, or or who we allow to influence us. Or who we allow to influence us, right? So something I have long mocked is this whole notion of, you know, who are you gonna take to heaven with you? Who's gonna get to heaven and be so glad you're there because you got them there, and they're gonna thank you for it without ever pausing to reflect on who's not going to be there because of the harm we've done. This heaven and hell that we have created and we've set the rules, who's gonna get there and not get there. We want to take all the credit for those who are gonna be there because of us. That's what these influencers talk about. This is why we want to have another mega church, because we want to get more people to heaven. But we take no responsibility for the people who walk out those doors and say, I'm never coming back, and I don't even know if I want God in my life. So, no, I don't think this podcast probably made anyone feel better. And I'm sorry, folks. But I do think it is high time we start having more conversations. We need to quit worrying so much about what people call gossip, and we need to have honest conversations amongst ourselves. The women in your lives are smart, they are intuitive, and they see things. And I think we can start trusting them more.

SPEAKER_02:

And giving each other permission to own, to own what we know, to to give each other the permission to speak, because it's in those connections that we feel less alone. It's in those connections where we do find community, and it's those connections that bring about real cultural change.

SPEAKER_00:

And I think when we are willing to have these conversations, whether it's a coworker, whether it's a neighbor, whether it's a friend, when we're willing to have these conversations, when we're willing to share ideas, observations, and patterns that we've seen, that is going to be more influential. It is going to be more life-changing and life-giving than it is to go to yet another seminar, than it is to yet buy another book, which pains me deeply, or to listen to yet another podcast. Here we are. Because so many of the people that we follow, the influencers, the pastors, the ones who claim to have the answers. The ones who claim the loudest to have the answers are simply chasing the next dollar. And they're the last people to take accountability. So let's practice starting up those conversations. Let's practice being curious. Let's practice asking more questions. Let's practice being that three-year-old who is like, huh, that's interesting. Say more. What do you mean by that? What does that mean? Let's revert back to that and let's quit believing that the influencers, the pastors, the men of God have the answers. They don't.

SPEAKER_02:

No, and I think the reason that kind of curiosity is so discouraged is because it might not change the rest of the world, but it could change your own world.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you for spending time with us today. The resources and materials we've mentioned are linked in the show notes and on Facebook at Uncovered LifeBeyond.

SPEAKER_01:

What are your thoughts about college and recovery from high-demand religion? We know you have your own questions and experiences, and we want to talk about the topics that matter to you. Share them with us at uncovered lifebeyond at gmail.com. That's uncoveredlifebeyond at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_00:

If you enjoyed today's show and found value in it, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast app. This helps others find the show. While you're there, subscribe to our podcast so you never miss an episode.

SPEAKER_01:

Until next time, stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward.

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Naomi Clark

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Rebecca Coblentz

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