Uncovered: Life Beyond
Join the conversations of Rebecca and Naomi, two ex-Amish Mennonite women who jumped the proverbial fence in their younger years and later experienced college as first-gen, non-traditional students. They discuss pursuing formal education while raising a family, navigating the hidden curriculum of academia, and other dimensions of reimagining a life beyond high-demand religion. Send your questions to uncoveredlifebeyond@gmail.com.
Uncovered: Life Beyond
60. You Are More than Your Resume: Turning Life Experience into Confidence
As midlife moms who have navigated identity changes without roadmaps, we're sharing what we've learned about translating caregiving experience into professional opportunities when facing a blank resume. We break down some of the emotional and practical aspects of job hunting for those who may have never had an official job title or feel their skills have expired.
• Challenging the myth that resume gaps mean you lack marketable skills
• Understanding how society's devaluation of women's work creates artificial barriers to employment
• Recognizing that managing family schedules, budgeting, and organizing events are valuable professional skills
• Using AI tools like ChatGPT to help translate caregiving experiences into professional resume language
• Identifying strategies to build confidence in job interviews without apologizing or sounding cocky
• Learning alternatives to excessive apologizing in professional settings
• Recognizing that experience matters, regardless of whether it came with a paycheck
• Finding the right support network that offers both encouragement and valuable feedback
Whether you're 21 or 61, you're not too late to make a career change. Your story isn't behind you—it's always unfolding, and we are cheering you on!
Links to Resources
How can I protect my privacy when using ChatGPT? (Boston University))
How To Write A BIFF Response® (High Conflict Institute): Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm
Deborah Tannen and Language (National Endowment for the Humanities)
18 Sample AI Prompts for Career Exploration
Digital Writing Careers Information Sheet
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This is Rebecca and this is Naomi. We're 40-something moms and first cousins who know what it's like to veer off the path assigned to us.
Speaker 2:We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college and career, as we questioned our faith traditions while exploring new identities and ways of seeing the world.
Speaker 1:Without any maps for either of us to follow. We've had to figure things out as we go and appreciate that detours and dead ends are essential to the path Along the way, we've uncovered a few insights we want to share with fellow travelers.
Speaker 2:We want to talk about the questions we didn't know who to ask and the options we didn't know we had.
Speaker 1:So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking things up, we are here to cheer you on and assure you that the best is yet to come. Welcome to Uncovered Life Beyond. Hello everyone, Welcome back to Uncovered Life Beyond. This is Naomi.
Speaker 2:And this is Rebecca. So today we're just going to kind of dive in and talk about a big subject. I know this is conversations that, naomi, you've had with other women and something I've been personally looking at quite a bit, and it's this whole thing of a resume and, to be fair, oftentimes it's more about looking at a blank piece of paper where we think a resume should be and having this feeling that maybe I personally don't have any real marketable skills and I want to work and I want to have a job, but what is it that I can even do?
Speaker 1:So many of us have been there, and this episode is for the person who maybe has never had an official job title, maybe they're not even sure what respect for their work feels like, and they're going. How am I ever going to get a job that supports me? How am I ever going to get a job that's respected and that I can feel good about? And I hope this episode will be a warm blanket on a cold day or, since we're right now in the heat of summer, maybe it'll be more like jumping into a pool of cool water on a sweltering hot day.
Speaker 1:When I've been in this kind of situation, the image that's come to mind for me is that I'm standing on the brink of this huge chasm and on the other side of this chasm is that ideal job that's going to give me financial security and it's going to be satisfying and meaningful and all these things, and I'm desperate to get there because I really need that. And also I look at that, all that space between me and the other side, and wonder how in the world I'm ever going to get there, and it can feel so hopeless.
Speaker 2:It can feel so hopeless and you know, maybe the reality is we haven't been given good skills to bridge that chasm and maybe the other side is a bit of an illusion as well, and I think for many of us illusion as well, and I think for many of us we've spent a lot of time in the work of caregiving, or maybe we stepped away from work because of illness or burnout or maybe a big move. There's so many things and when you take that and combine that with a lack of a formal education or even paid work, it's really difficult to define who you are from a professional setting. And I think about the ways many of us were even encouraged to work, probably more female than our male counterparts, but we were encouraged to work for free and trust the Lord to bless us. And I think for people who've experienced that side of it too, it really becomes this difficult and not just a difficult process to work through.
Speaker 1:It's not just the difficulty in writing a resume that an employer is going to be impressed by, but it's the emotional side of what's going on inside us too. Yeah, yeah, so true, so true. So today, I think our goal is to bust the myth that someone who is in this situation doesn't have marketable skills or that their skills have expired. And this is while also saying this, is also acknowledging that conventionally, gaps on a resume do invite questions, and obviously there are some jobs that require formal training or certification. So we're not here to say, hey, you can actually do whatever you want to do, because we know that that's not realistic either.
Speaker 1:But we are here to say that we think this chasm that stands between us and a rewarding job is more about how society devalues women's work, how it takes away any bridges to cross that chasm, or the boats or the ferries to cross the chasm.
Speaker 1:And it's more about how society devalues women's work than it is about the actual value of what we have to offer. And we think it's more about how women are often denied those tools or discouraged from pursuing those tools early in life. And that's really that is the bigger problem than what is or isn't on our resume. And since this is not just an individual issue, it's not just a matter of an individual's unique choices. It's about how we function as a society, as a system within a society. This is an important message for employers too. This is an important message for people who are doing the interviewing, and our message for you is please, please, please, don't assume that a person's resume is the sum total of who they are. Consider that your organization might be missing out on incredible talent for your business when you overlook someone who has some gaps in their resume or their resume doesn't exactly fit the criteria of what you might expect to see.
Speaker 2:Right, right. You know I have often observed that it's easy to say that you value stay-at-home moms or that you value diversity, until it affects you personally, and then it becomes more difficult to actually put that into practice. And I think this is such a amazing way for people in power to show and to actually live their values. Many employers or many people in power would say they've benefited from having a stay-at-home wife or mother to either raise you or support you as a professional. Women joke among themselves that we all want a wife, and this is such an incredible way to actually live what you say you believe.
Speaker 1:When I think about this, I think of a situation I once witnessed where a minister and he was a nice guy, he was a nice guy was talking. This person no longer had child care, child child care responsibilities at this point anymore. But that was held against them, and this was a nice person who was doing this. This was not some kind of horrible bigot.
Speaker 2:True and like locally here and again. This was a pastor who has a really big organization publicly said that you have to be careful about hiring young women because they just get married and have babies about the time you get done training them. Sexism is alive and well. Yeah, and it's such a demeaning way to look at not just women but teenagers and young girls. And we say we value marriage, we say we value motherhood, but do we really Not? When it costs us something, we want it to benefit us.
Speaker 1:And speaking of costing something or going against the grain, I think any employer that really takes this to heart can see this as an opportunity to exercise that growth mindset and to be perceived as a leader in the community, and I think that's a huge opportunity for someone who wants to live out their values in this way.
Speaker 2:For sure, and it takes an incredible amount of emotional intelligence to know and to understand that we don't all start out on third base or even second base, and this is such a brilliant way to make sure that everyone gets a chance and that we don't have people who end up needing to rely on welfare.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And on top of all this, this is also an invitation to these employers to have the integrity to pay a fair day's wage for a fair day's work, regardless of gender. I'll always remember I believe it was Larry Burkett and he was kind of the. He's long gone now, but he was kind of the Dave Ramsey before. Dave Ramsey was Dave Ramsey. This is kind of one of those weird things. Why did this stick with me? I don't know, but I remember him saying that when his organization needed to hire secretarial staff, administrative staff, he hired a bunch of stay-at-home moms or formerly stay-at-home moms because they needed flexibility and he was willing to give them the flexibility and also they accepted lower wages and he was proud of this. He thought that was a good thing.
Speaker 2:And he taught that as a model of how to run a business. I mean, Larry Burkett was like the early financial guru guy and I don't think I will understand how exploiting someone else for your benefit is considered leadership, and not just leadership, but Christian leadership.
Speaker 1:Yeah, unless exploitation is a feature, not a bug. But I guess that's a soapbox for another day.
Speaker 2:But I guess that's a soapbox for another day. Yeah, all that being said, our goal today is to help you spot the skills you do have and how to use tools like generative AI to help you tell your story and to understand who you are with confidence. And I know, I know AI sounds scary. But hear us out. And, in addition to that, remember we don't have any magical solutions. We're not Mary Poppins, we're not going to pull the perfect job out of our bag, but we want to point out ways to help you understand what you're seeing Like. Sometimes I think we see things, but it's really difficult to name what we're seeing, and we want to help you do that. And we also want to help you recognize the power that you do have and how to hold that power and use it to benefit you.
Speaker 1:So our first segment is about the resume gap trap, and, before we talk about composing the resume itself, I think it's important to make a few caveats. First of all, resumes get a lot of attention because they are a foundational part of our professional identity and also it's one of the few things under our control, and because of these reasons, it's easy to obsess over it, and I think it's really important not to take this episode here today or conversation here today as saying as encouraging anyone to obsess over their resume. It is an important tool, but it's just one tool. It's way more important to work within a network, to be able to talk about our qualifications in a relevant way, and so in that way, the resume is more a tool to help prepare us for the workforce rather than as a magical document that's going to just, you know, open doors.
Speaker 2:Right and I think it's fair to point out. For many of us who were stay-at-home moms were involved in caregiving our networks aren't going to be the same as those who are out on the golf course, and I think, while networks are important, it can also produce feelings of shame because you feel like you aren't connected enough.
Speaker 1:And you probably aren't. I mean, that's the point you make about the golf course is so true. That's why the golf course is the stereotype, that's why it's the golf course is because of those, of what it facilitates. So I 100% agree that those access to networks are everything. And also I think that, relative to what our resume may look like, it's talking to people, it's having acquaintances who can introduce us to other acquaintances. That are usually the most productive ways.
Speaker 2:often the people who genuinely like other people, and I think sometimes networking has become this schmoozing. Yes, it's become the schmoozing, this manipulative. You know back in, oh, I don't know back in, oh, I don't know. Early 2000s, the religious terminology was leveraging. You leverage everything you have for. God, oh and that came out of the corporate world, that came out of the corporate world and that you leveraged everything for God, of course, for your benefit, because God would want you to succeed.
Speaker 2:And I think maybe it's much more simple. I think when you're authentically curious about other people and when you are willing to openly invest in others and develop relationships, you can develop networks that will benefit you in ways that the golf course or leveraging everything for God won't. You don't have to manipulate other people in order to benefit Right, right, and one thing I think that's important to point out is there's many people who like to brag, and it's a core, core value of the Anabaptist world is this idea of community, and in order to have community, someone has to be the caregiver, someone has to set up the meals, someone has to be taking care of others, and the cruel reality is oftentimes that falls on the women's shoulder and it's unpaid labor. And to take that even a step further, I think oftentimes single women are even given more responsibility in that aspect.
Speaker 2:I have single friends who I'm constantly horrified by the stories they tell me about the expectation that outside people have in regards to how they will be caring for their family or they will be caring for different people, with this underlying belief that God's blessing is going to take care of them in the long run. And I'm here to tell you, god's blessing just doesn't come in the form of a paycheck. It doesn't for most of us and I think it is unfair and it is cruel for us to expect that from women, and we need to do a better job of making community be something that both men and women carry, both married and single people carry your point illustrates how, even when those of us are out of work, we're not not working.
Speaker 1:It's just work that doesn't come with a paycheck or performance reviews or documentation of some kind. It's it's managing things that are like way more thorny often. I mean whether that's managing meals and different dietary needs, managing doctor's appointments, sibling dynamics and those don't go away when people grow up necessarily, and these folks in these caregiving roles can really carry a tremendous both physical and emotional burden and weight.
Speaker 2:And to your point, I think, so many times those roles and even some of the actual jobs you get then come without a job description, and so it becomes really difficult when you're filling out a resume to realize I've been doing this and I literally don't even have a job description, like I don't. Those spots are empty and we're going to talk about that more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and how is it that I can have been working so hard and have nothing to show for it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't even have a job description Right. Exactly that has its own element of devastation.
Speaker 1:It does, and I just want to say to anyone who is feeling that let's step back for a minute and before you start questioning yourself and your inherent worth and what's wrong with you, before we go there, let's first think about who's benefiting from you being in this role. Who has benefited, and how might it also benefit a potential employer to pretend that you don't have skills? They can hire you for a lot less if they can convince you that you don't have much to offer, and that's what we're here to challenge.
Speaker 2:Larry Burkett knew what he was talking about.
Speaker 1:He did he did, and I hope that today we can point out real transferable skills that folks in this situation do offer the paid workforce even if few employers are willing to recognize and fairly pay for those skills and reframing those caregiving experiences or whatever it is that was being done during that time. We're using caregiving experiences here as this kind of big umbrella term, but finding ways to reframe those experiences as marketable skills can really showcase your strengths, and we're going to talk about really concrete tools and ways to do this. But just to circle back, even though we're talking about this in terms of resume language, remember, don't get too caught up on writing the perfect resume. Your resume will never be done. We'll keep working on it, keep tinkering on it, tinkering with it as you go through your professional life.
Speaker 1:Here's what's most important to remember you can promote yourself so much better than your resume ever could.
Speaker 1:And even when your networks feel very tenuous because they very likely are, just remember you're still much, statistically, much more likely to find a job through someone who knows someone, who knows you, someone you meet someone you happen to meet then because of your resume standing out in the stack. And that's true if you are 21 and on the job market and if you are 42 or whatever age, you are on the job market. But the importance of talking about these stories, the importance of talking about these skills and how we are framing them, is that it can help us take assessment of what our experiences and qualifications are and it can help us start doing that inner work to really build that inner confidence that we do have valuable talents to offer. And I think, even for someone who is maybe deep in the caregiving trenches right now but maybe thinking about a job search several years from now, there are things you can be doing now to be preparing yourself for that, to be helping set yourself up for success, so that you'll just have more options, more opportunities down the road.
Speaker 2:And on the note of networks, while it is statistically true and I know it's true that you have a better job, or invalidated, within those networks when you have your own networks who don't seem to appreciate you or value what you bring to the table. That does have its own level of pain, and it's real, and it's there, yeah, and I wonder sometimes, possibly within tight communities, if it's not even worse.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm so glad you brought that up, because we aren't likely to get a job through a tight connection. It's the loose connections that are going to like. Statistically. It's the loose connections that are more likely to help us find a job someone, an acquaintance, an acquaintance level than someone that we know closely.
Speaker 2:So if you find yourself within a tight Amish Mennonite community, your connections can actually hurt you.
Speaker 1:Mishmeneite community. Your connections can actually hurt you. Yeah, and the more productive connections will probably be someone that you like know on an acquaintance level or that you know. You know, maybe you see them when you go to a store or you see them at a place of business or you see them on occasion, but they're not necessarily close. That's more likely where you're going to find a job than someone that you are closely related to. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:To a degree, because I think oftentimes the Amish Mennonite community's golf course is church. So I think men, I think men can tend to find jobs that way and people with good standing, yeah, but if you're a little bit on the fringes, I don't think. I think what you're saying is true.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah yeah, I guess it's. It's to me it's an encouragement to go broad rather than to focus on the people very close to you, the people you already know. If you want to make, it's an encouragement to go beyond that. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Particularly if you're female. I think that's true, yeah, so let's talk about some of the typical skills that many caregivers don't even realize they already have, or they know they have them, but they don't know how to present the skills in a positive way.
Speaker 1:Right, right, like I think about anybody who has children who are involved in different activities or maybe involved in their community. They've got a complicated weekly family schedule that they're coordinating and in the business world that's called logistics and calendar management and it's a real thing.
Speaker 2:It's a real thing Also, like navigating doctor's visits and medicines and insurance claims and helping others figure that out. That's health care advocacy and administrative experience and we don't think of it that way.
Speaker 1:Right. But understanding how those systems work is huge and I think anyone who has been involved or has had a family member with a chronic health condition man you can get a crash course on the intricacies of the system and that's really valuable knowledge, right. Moms I know who have been involved in lesson planning and instructional design and maybe teaching in a co-op situation. Maybe that's given them experience working with children who have special needs or some kind of learning challenges. All those we're talking about extreme patients under pressure. We're talking about managing multiple demands, about triaging demands and deciding what gets your attention when those are really really important skills for any workplace.
Speaker 2:And those skills, while maybe not done in a professional sense, can take even a stronger sense of intuition to be able to navigate in those types of settings.
Speaker 1:Right? Is it not just a one-off event, but maybe it's an event, an annual event or a repeated event or some kind of organization or group that you've been a part of over a period of time and maybe have carried increasing responsibility for All those things? Those experiences can be so valuable. Yeah, the conflict resolution or collaboration between different organizations maybe competing organizations being able to collaborate based on shared interests is well. For example, it's at the heart of sales, but certainly other, lots of other professional roles as well. So if you're listening and you're thinking about some of the skills and the experiences that you have had, we want to invite you to hit pause and just write down five things that you've done consistently or have been involved in consistently over the past few years.
Speaker 1:What we mentioned here just barely scrapes the surface, but write those things down. Don't worry about if they sound professional or not. That's beside the point. These are some things to pay attention to. Is it something that you have designed? Is it something that you have instigated? Is it something that you have seen, a project that you have seen through? Is it something that you've done repeatedly? Is it a project that has grown in scale over time or that has involved a growing number of people or a growing responsibility, whatever that is. Jot down five or more, however many come to mind, and then we'll talk about how you can translate those into resume language, into language that is relevant to the workplace. So, if it feels like all you've done for the last how many years is created and maintained weekly meal plans and grocery budgets to meet family dietary needs. Well, that's resource management and you're already doing the job. We're just going to help you name it.
Speaker 2:So this is where AI comes in. We call him Chad, chatty Chad, but yes, yes, we're talking about the robots and we promise they can actually be really helpful. And I know, I know there's a scary element there, but let's lean into the helpful part and learn how to navigate that.
Speaker 1:And the cool thing is that, well, the basic platform for ChatGPT is free, and there's plenty of others out there too ChatGPT is the one I'm most familiar with but all it needs is your email and you can use it for free. And I think this is where it can be really valuable to understand the limits of generative AI or platforms like ChatGPT, because all they're doing is taking vast amounts of data and essentially predicting what word is going to come next, what word is most likely to come next about creativity, this is about, well, it's like making writing sound like it's coming out of an encyclopedia. When we are wanting to write something from the heart, obviously we're not going to try to sound like an encyclopedia, but when we're doing something for a professional setting, then it might be helpful to know oh, how is this usually said? And for me that has been so helpful. You can kind of put in to ChatGPT kind of a rough version of whatever it is you're thinking about and saying can you help me say this in a more professional way? And ChatGPT will do that.
Speaker 1:Does it sound beautiful? Does it sound creative? Does it sound is it going to win any awards? No, but that's the point. So I think the other thing that's really important to remember too is that when we are trying to reframe skills that are often not valued, it can kind of come off a little awkward or wonky, or it can sound as though we're kind of fluffing up, we're using elevated language just to sound smart, and that just comes off as fake, and that's definitely not what we're here to talk about. That's definitely not what we're recommending. The trick that I come back to is to focus on the facts and not use evaluative language.
Speaker 2:So, instead of using words like good and beautiful and wonderful and fantastic and these kinds of evaluative words, sticking to the facts is a way that we can show our best work without either inflating it or coming off as cocky Right and as kind of as a side note, when you set up your ChetchDBT account, you can go into your account settings and turn off the setting that allows your information to be fed into the greater system that offers more privacy for you and keeps your information more secure for you and keeps your information more secure and, as always, never, ever, give it personal or identifying information you know. Be smart about it. Use it for your benefit, but don't pretend like chatty Chad is your best friend.
Speaker 1:That is such good advice and I'll make sure to drop a link to directions for how to make those security settings changes in the show notes, because that's really important to remember.
Speaker 2:But as an example of what you could put in as a prompt. An example of what you could put in as a prompt. You could ask it to rewrite this experience as a resume bullet Managed household of five, including coordinating medical appointments, remote school schedules and meal prep. While on a budget.
Speaker 1:And then ChatGPT might come back with something like oversaw scheduling and logistics for a multi-person household, including education, coordination, health care administration and financial planning.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sounds perfectly legit to me, and it's not inflating anything, no, but it's just professionally stating what you've done Exactly. The great thing is it's not devaluing it either no-transcript qualifications.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've really come to appreciate what AI can do as a tool. You know, we bring the wisdom, we bring the creativity, we bring the experience, the values, and what AI can do is help us format it. And even that we still have to go back and read it and say, does this formatting sound like something I would say Like, does this feel authentic to me and does it accurately represent what I'm trying to say? We can never let the robots do our thinking for us. We still have to bring that insight to whatever it produces. But as AI is helping us format it, then what we can do to make a resume really sing is bring the details, bring the data, the numbers that show the scope of your experience and really bring to life what you've done.
Speaker 2:Right, and you want to use it like a mirror, not a mask. You want it to reflect your strengths back to you, but you don't want to use it to replace your voice. And the interesting thing I found when I was putting out a bunch of resumes was a lot of these companies if not all of them would ask you if it was okay to feed your resume to AI. So they're doing it on the other side too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've been reading about this and I'm glad you brought that up, because I was reading about a case study where an employer was feeding resumes into AI and somebody who was incredibly qualified for a position got passed over because of a pattern that it was irrelevant to the situation, but it was a pattern that AI had picked up on. It was irrelevant to the situation, but it was a pattern that AI had picked up on and since AI is training itself, it had come to rely on that pattern, even though it was not relevant, and in that situation, the person had called and talked to a real person and said hey, you know, I don't understand what's going on here, and the person ended up getting the job after all. So I think this is just another reason why we can't rely on a resume to get a job that's the best fit for us, necessarily.
Speaker 2:But I think it's a tight, tight rope that you're walking on, because I asked someone about a resume I sent and I think I offended that person. So I think right now it's just really difficult. It's really difficult. Do I use AI? Do I not use AI? Am I going to be criticized for using it, or am I going to be criticized because I'm not keeping up with technology and refusing to use it? Do I approach my network regarding the job I applied for, or will it be seen as offensive if I do? And here's the lesson I've been trying to learn from it.
Speaker 2:I think it's important, at the end of the day, that we do what we know to do. I think it's important, at the end of the day, that we do what we know to do. We are allowed to make mistakes. We are allowed to even be perceived as making mistakes, whether or not it was a mistake. We're allowed to do that and the person I think I offended it's okay, it wasn't the job for me, but I think we have to be really careful about latching on to formulas, or this is what worked for this person as a guarantee that it's also going to work for us. I think the professional world likes to have these stories of this person did this and this and this and look at what happened. This and this and look at what happened, but they don't talk about the stories where someone used the connections that were available to them and it backfired.
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely Absolutely. I remember when I was applying for my current job. I remember I lost count after I put out like 90 applications. I kind of quit counting after that. And I remember going into that season of job hunting, looking for the hack, looking for, you know, looking for secret and reading, you know the tea leaves, you know. And I came away from that experience with just a belief, stronger than ever, that you just some things you just can't hack. You just you do the best you can and I love what you say about make mistakes. That's how we learn, and anybody who shames you for that is not your person. And you do the best you can with what you've got available and that's all, that's all we can do. And and you're right, there are no, there are no formulas, and that's all, that's all we can do. And you're right, there are no formulas, even though formulas sell a lot of self-help books.
Speaker 2:Right, right, right right. There are none. You follow God's will, and then you have to wrestle with the idea of so what if God doesn't really care about where I work? Maybe that's not, maybe he doesn't have this perfect plan for me, and so you're kind of wrestling your way through that, and I think it's easy for us then to want to come up with the perfect network or the perfect chat GBT script, or the perfect network or the perfect chat gbt script or the perfect, you know whatever version of god's will that we can tap into to guarantee results, when the truth of it is, we are human and human, and the other side is human too, and humans are messy. Humans have all kinds of biases and preconceived ideas of what they think they need, and more and more and I don't mean to be sacrilegious when I say this, but more and more. I think it is just about doing what you know the next right thing to be, the right next thing to do, and following that path wherever it might be.
Speaker 2:I think only a few people get to have the perfect notion of career, and more and more I've been trying to decide if perhaps we have been encouraged to make career this pivotal part of our lives, when maybe career is just a way to pay the bills. I don't have to love it, I don't have to hate it, I can show up, I can make my money, I can leave, and can I just be okay with that? Do employers want us to love it and sink our very being into it so that we over give? And I don't know the answers, but it's certainly something I've been thinking about.
Speaker 1:I'm pretty sure about that. Yeah, that saying, if you do work you love, no, what is it? If you find a job you love, you'll never work a day in your life. No, that is that's no, oh, for all the F's sakes like seriously, no, no, no, no, no, okay, no, no, no no.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so let's have a real moment. Naomi, what would you say to someone who's sitting there thinking is it too late for me?
Speaker 1:to someone who's sitting there thinking is it too late for me? What's interesting to me is how this sense can hit us at any age. I remember being 21. I had left my Amish Mennonite community with no clear path ahead and I really thought college had already passed me by and by the time I was 25, I was a little bit wiser and could begin to imagine what that path could look like. But you know, sometimes my life feels like it's just been a series of pivots where I was always the newbie and where I am right now for once. For once, I'm not the obvious newbie and boy. It is a nice feeling. There's a reason we don't want to be the newbie. Even when I now see how young I was at the time and how adorable 21-year-old me was thinking that I had missed my window for college, I know that those feelings can be so real and that we can feel them at any age. I can feel like it's too late.
Speaker 2:For sure, and I think maybe for those of us who come from more isolated communities and grew up a little bit more sheltered, not so familiar with pop culture, we can always feel like we're catching up. We're just playing this constant game of catching up. There was an element of what the heck when I started college in my 40s and I was sitting next to high school kids in a dual enrollment class and, yeah, I felt like a fish out of water. But even more than that, there was this element of the world doesn't have a place for me. And now I just recently started a new job doing something I have been doing my whole damn life and I'm still being treated as a newbie. The training process doesn't end and there's one side of me who knows, you know, this is, this, is part of starting something new. This is this is, this is what happens. But I think there's also another side of me who understands that. I think part of the workforce wants you to feel that way.
Speaker 1:Once you just feel like you don't quite belong.
Speaker 2:The system does. The system benefits from that feeling. So I also think we need to learn you use the word pivot, which I think is a perfect word, but I also think we need to learn to keep advocating for ourselves. And I mean, guys, I'm 50 and I just started a new job and I'm asking how in the heck did I not know to ask this question? How did I not know to ask how long does this training quote, training process last, and how can it be that I am 50? This is not a rocket science job and I am being treated as if I've never done this before.
Speaker 1:I think. Well, you know, this is just one more reason why the job market can be such a soul-sucking place.
Speaker 1:It is soul-sucking, and I think it's prudent to be aware of the different schemes that employers are using to take advantage of the desperation that people feel for good jobs. I mean, I even I'm thinking of hearing about situations in like computer engineering kinds of jobs or computer coding kinds of jobs, where they are asking candidates, job candidates, to do projects for them and then they're taking the work you know and this person's not getting the job. And that's just one example. This happens in plenty of other fields too, more and more, and it's a way of squeezing unpaid labor out of workers. And this is what happens when we don't have unions. This is what happens when the balance of power has shifted so far to the side of employers.
Speaker 1:And the number of scams that are out there on you know some of the big websites where they will present something as a training and then it turns out it's there's no job, or you know there's. You know some, some, some major catch the the. The whole gamut from outright scams to scammy behavior, to simply exploitative behavior, you know, is out there, and I think it's prudent to be aware of it and to realize that it's important to do the next right thing and to know when it's time to cut our losses and go look for another place or go look for another option.
Speaker 2:Right and I think, understanding that sometimes it can be a little bit between a hazing experience and a dog fight, may the toughest soul win. Knowing when to stay, when to walk, when to speak up, when to stay silent, when to address what you're seeing, when to just see what you're seeing and know what you're seeing. You're seeing and know what you're seeing All of that is so difficult and more and more I embrace the value of trusting your instincts, trusting your gut and even if you are wrong, so what it was your mistake to make? You learn from it. You deal with the consequences, you move on. And I think this goes back to this whole idea of God's will, because if you're living in God's will, then things won't go wrong, you won't suffer, you won't face disaster. And it's bogus, it's a mind fuck that's hard to get out of.
Speaker 2:We have to understand that making mistakes is part of living and we are not exempt from getting it wrong, and we just need to keep moving forward.
Speaker 1:I know we said we don't have any hacks or any magic solutions, but I think if there is any hack to take away from today, that's it. I snap, snap, snap, and I think this is also why it's such an internal project. This is about internal work and it's that internal work that gives us the confidence to take up space, to take up oxygen, even if we make mistakes, because guess what that's life. We all deserve to have our needs met and the trick is to believe that and follow through on that while still believing the same for others too. And often I think we've found many of us especially as those of us socialized, as women, as girls, have been encouraged to practice self-reflection, self-awareness, and it's not just women and girls, but certainly I think we get more conscious encouragement to do that.
Speaker 2:We get a double portion of encouragement.
Speaker 1:There you go, there you go To practice self-reflection, self-awareness, but with that double portion can come an awareness of all we don't know, and so we can make the mistake. It's really easy to make the mistake of focusing on what we don't know then rather on what we do, and then self-doubt can really hold us back. And I think that's important to recognize when we are entering some new phase of life or a work situation to be confident in what we do know rather than being consumed by what we don't know.
Speaker 2:Right and I think it's important to point out those of us who have done caregiving whether it is taking care of families, taking care of aging parents we have grit, we have creativity and that is really what we need, that's what the world needs, and if we take that and hang on to that, rather than letting other people's overconfidence make us question ourselves, like I think, sometimes I see people behaving in this very confident manner and I just think, wow, I want a portion of that. And it's easy to doubt yourself and it's easy to let other people undermine our accomplishments. But I think it circles back around to us doing our internal work and valuing what we bring to the table and insisting that that gets recognized and valued as well.
Speaker 1:Right, and it's important to recognize that when people do undermine our accomplishments, it can often be about they're feeling threatened, or it can be that they just don't want to pay you what you're worth. There can be so many other things going on there, and I think it can be really important to be aware of what else is going on and why they might not want to acknowledge what we do bring to the table. And because of this I think it's so important, especially those of us who have been consumed with caregiving. It's easy to either fall into the track of either thinking about our own needs and conveniences or to only think about others' needs and conveniences, and I think it's really important for us to bring to be conscious of our needs and conveniences and to advocate for them, while also acknowledging those of others. And it's that mutuality that is where we find that self-respect, mutual respect, those really healthy relational dynamics.
Speaker 2:Right, because the beauty really does exist in holding both. The beauty exists in ensuring that everyone gets oxygen, because we all do need that.
Speaker 1:Right and apologizing is something that you've talked about as something you've really noticed. Can you say more about?
Speaker 2:that. So something I've been observing at work is how often females come in and apologize. Females come in and apologize. I've been just noticing it in the language that gets used and I've realized how often that is part of our vocabulary Like almost knee jerk, yeah, and men rarely do. Men rarely come into the winery and apologize for needing something or make an apology within their request. They can be very respectful and very kind in what they request, but men rarely make a request and then apologize for it.
Speaker 2:And something I've been practicing is so if someone has to wait because you know I get stuck doing something else and I can't immediately serve them at the bar, whatever the case is, instead of saying, oh, I am so sorry to keep you waiting, I will say thank you so much for your patience. How can I help you? And I love that verbiage. All of a sudden it switches the notion of good behavior to them, like that's their responsibility, but it recognizes their good behavior, shows appreciation for it, and then we get to business and I've kind of taken to encouraging the women who come in and apologize. I've started encouraging them not to apologize, and I think it's something we really need to think about, and there's websites that you can go to this. You can go to find more ideas regarding this. But instead of saying sorry, there's so many different phrases we can use. I appreciate your flexibility. Sure, I will take care of that. I will help you find a solution. I apologize for inconveniences that that might have caused. Let's find a way to move forward. How can I make this right for you? What if we just say may I have a moment of your time, instead of saying I'm so sorry, I need your time at this moment, or whatever, may I have a moment of your time?
Speaker 2:Something else I've been really, really focusing on is just simply saying if someone says something crude or disrespectful or something that I'm just like huh, instead of me taking the emotional energy and trying to figure it out. I love saying I don't know what you meant by that. Can you say more? Make them explain their own bullshit. It is so freeing, it is so liberating, because I do think sometimes people use flat out bullshit as a way to deter you, and then I will spend the next week trying to figure out what that person meant, when I could have just made them explain themselves on the spot.
Speaker 2:It is one of the most freeing things I have done. I love that. That's so. That's so huge. I wish I had learned this when I was 20. Right, and another thing that I think is important to say is I can see this is upsettingst or concern, but I don't necessarily have to apologize for their concern. Something I think we need to quit saying and I'm sure it started out well-intentioned but we need to quit saying I'm sorry you feel that way. Like, can we take a moment and talk about that? I feel like that is so dismissive.
Speaker 1:It's become a passive aggressive code, for that's your problem. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think people use it when they have done real harm and they don't want to acknowledge it. Yeah, it has been used, I think, too often in that type of situation and I would love to start a campaign that we quit using that phrase. Well, I'm right there with you.
Speaker 1:I agree.
Speaker 1:The takeaway for this is that when we have a name for what we're seeing, when we're conscious of our options in these situations, we have more power to choose how we want to respond, and I love this list that you've shared here of alternatives to I'm sorry, because I think that it just it elevates the conversation and it's it's not just about self elevation, but it you know, as you pointed out, it it also dignifies the people that we're interacting with as well.
Speaker 1:I'm going to drop a couple of resources in the show notes that have been really helpful for me. One is how to write a BIF response. That's an acronym for brief, informative, friendly and firm, and this is specifically tailored for potentially high conflict situations, but I think this can be really helpful even for places where it's not high conflict, but what we're needing to communicate effectively. Also, deborah Tannen has done some insightful research on gendered language patterns, and if anyone is interested in doing a deeper dive on that, we'll link to some of her work in the show notes as well. It's really interesting to link to some of her work in the show notes as well. It's really interesting to see how some of these patterns manifest themselves in our language as well, and while changing the way we talk about things is not a magic fix, it can be a step in bringing more justice to the world.
Speaker 2:I think you are like the most brilliant person I know regarding resources and this type of thing has been so helpful because, of course, it takes time to change the narratives and you know the scripts we use. But just the relief of having vocabulary for what you see happening I think is so important and I know resources like that have helped me so much Because it's like, oh, I'm not crazy Other people say this too.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely. I agree. They have been so helpful to me too, and I'm happy to pass them along. So, when we think back over what we've been talking about here today, we want to leave you with three specific, three concrete things you can do this week if you're thinking about re-entering or entering the workforce, or pivoting careers or making a big change. First of all, write down that list of weekly responsibilities, past or present, and label the kind of real skill that each one represents.
Speaker 2:And you know, I think sometimes these skills are skills that we don't even think about. Like I think it's easy to believe that it's just normal, but when I was working on my resume, it's easy to believe that it's just normal, but when I was working on my resume, I realized that, oh, I had negotiated with my insurance company to pay for services that were being offered at my child's school, services that they would cover when you went to the office, but not when they came to the school. I had been told, by three men actually, that I wouldn't get them to change. And guess what I did?
Speaker 2:That is no small feat, but I never considered putting that on my resume.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And I know there's those of you who've, for past 20 years, have been teaching Sunday school classes, bible studies, homeschool, co-op classes. That is a skill and I think, a skill that should be appreciated and valued.
Speaker 1:And what it demonstrates is consistency. It demonstrates persistence, it demonstrates responsibility. It demonstrates that you can see a project through that you can grow it, you can develop it, that you can be dependent on to show up. Those are the kinds of qualities that are so desperately needed.
Speaker 2:Right, and something else that you helped me see that I didn't even realize was a good skill was for over 15 years I coordinated an annual sales event that attracted 250 people every year. I am sure we netted over $10,000 per event.
Speaker 2:I had to work with the public. I had to work with hotels. I had to work with event. I had to work with the public. I had to work with hotels. I had to work with advertising. I had to work with vendors and it was something I did and I developed over the years, but I didn't think about it being something that was noteworthy to put on a resume because I personally didn't necessarily see it as career or professional.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think it's yeah. We're educating employers, I think as much as anyone, as much as the internal self-talk, but they don't know this if we don't tell them. Correct internal self-talk, but they don't know this if we don't tell them. So once you've got that list and you're not limited to five things, but if you can come up with five things, that's good, that's a good starting point Paste it into a generative AI tool like ChatGPT and ask it to rewrite this as professional resume bullets and play around with prompts Like don't just take the first thing that comes, but see what, see what it says and see what ideas it generates for you and how you might want to expand on some things, how it might generate ideas of other things you've done that you forgot to mention.
Speaker 1:You can also say just write out your situation in a paragraph along with all your concerns. You know both your strengths, the challenges, the requirements. You know this job has to be within walking distance or whatever, or has to happen between school hours or whatever, whatever those factors are that are really critical for you. Just write it all out and ask chatGPT to help you brainstorm possible career suggestions. I mean, there could be wonderful job opportunities for you out there that you've not even considered, and I think that's where this can be really helpful in coming up with ideas. But then, as always, bottom line, don't take Chat GPT suggestions as the gospel truth, but really sit with them and think about how they sit with you. Only use what feels authentic to you. And remember you're not looking for chat GPT to turn your resume into the ideal resume, because that's not a thing. You're looking for a job that values you for who you are, for you what you truly offer, not for a pretend version of you. So so be that authentic self.
Speaker 2:And you know, I think to be that authentic self, we really have to dive into our own internal work and that's probably one of the harder things to do. And speaking of difficult things to do, number three on the list was most difficult for me. Sharing those results from chat GBT with someone else was difficult for me, whether it's a friend, a mentor, a career coach. I think we need to find someone to share that with or a career coach. I think we need to find someone to share that with and let those people remind you also of your value. Let them speak into what chat GPT recognized or maybe missed. Allow them to bring the human element to your resume.
Speaker 2:And I think we should have a note of caution here. Be careful when you talk to someone else. It's important that you are met with curiosity and belief. If someone is dismissive, it's a reflection of them. It's not a reflection of you. Keep looking, find another mentor, find another friend, find someone who believes in you and is both encouraging and also offers valuable feedback. I don't think any of us want encouragement without feedback.
Speaker 1:And we'll drop some links in the show notes for other AI prompts for resume workshops, resources for folks making career pivots in midlife. I'll also include a link to a Google Doc that I created for my students who are looking into digital writing jobs, and so this is an example of how maybe there's a field that you're interested in, and these are questions that you can use to do some research and find out yeah, what is what's that field like? What's that job like? What's that? What are the opportunities, the growth opportunities? What kind of qualifications are required? What kind of background does someone typically have? Vacations are required. What kind of background does someone typically have?
Speaker 1:So that's another way that you can explore and find ideas and kind of let that help you as your professional identity evolves. The most important thing to remember is that you're not too late. Whether you're 21 or 61, you're not too late. You're right on time. While the things that you didn't have whether that's formal education or a job with growth opportunities, whatever it might be that you didn't have remember, though you do have experience. Let's find a way to make the most of that experience. Don't let anyone tell you that experience doesn't matter. It does.
Speaker 2:You're right on time so if this episode has helped you reframe your story or how you see your history, please send it to someone else who might need that same reminder today if you're one of the many of us who are thinking about making a big change or figuring out what's next, we'd love to hear from you.
Speaker 1:We'd love to know what topics you'd like to hear more about in future episodes. We are not professional career coaches, but we love to talk about our own experiences and we love to share the resources that we found helpful, and we'd love to know how we can be a voice of encouragement, because we know how discouraging, we know how difficult, how challenging these kinds of changes can be.
Speaker 2:So, until next time, remember that your story isn't behind you. It is always unfolding and we are here cheering you on.
Speaker 1:We'll see you next time.
Speaker 2:Thank you for spending time with us today. The resources and materials we've mentioned are linked in the show notes and on Facebook at Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 1:What are your thoughts about college and recovery from high demand religion? We know you have your own questions and experiences, and we wanna talk about the topics that matter to you. Share them with us at uncoveredlifebeyondatgmailcom. That's uncoveredlifebeyondatgmailcom.
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Speaker 1:Until next time stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward.
