Uncovered: Life Beyond
Join the conversations of Rebecca and Naomi, two ex-Amish Mennonite women who jumped the proverbial fence in their younger years and later experienced college as first-gen, non-traditional students. They discuss pursuing formal education while raising a family, navigating the hidden curriculum of academia, and other dimensions of reimagining a life beyond high-demand religion. Send your questions to uncoveredlifebeyond@gmail.com.
Uncovered: Life Beyond
59. The Courage to Ask Why: When Questions = Rebellion
Rebecca and Naomi explore why curiosity requires courage, especially for those on the margins. We examine how gender, race, and religious upbringing shape who feels safe to ask questions and who faces consequences for challenging the status quo.
• Safety is a prerequisite for curiosity, but not everyone is equally encouraged to be inquisitive
• Women, particularly women of color, often face negative consequences for asking challenging questions
• Religious communities frequently use concepts like submission, forgiveness, and respect for authority to silence questioning
• Power structures in churches, schools, and families often treat curiosity as a threat rather than a virtue
• Critical thinking asks uncomfortable questions: who built these systems, who benefits, and what alternatives exist?
• Developing internal safety and self-trust helps us ask difficult questions even in unsafe environments
• The more dangerous a question feels to ask, the more important it probably is
We'd love to hear your story. When was the first time you remember feeling safe enough to ask hard questions but then realized it wasn't safe after all? Send us a voice memo, email, or text using the link above.
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This is.
Speaker 2:Rebecca, and this is Naomi. We're 40-something moms and first cousins who know what it's like to veer off the path assigned to us.
Speaker 1:We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college and career, as we questioned our faith traditions while exploring new identities and ways of seeing the world.
Speaker 2:Without any maps for either of us to follow. We've had to figure things out as we go and appreciate that detours and dead ends are essential to the path Along the way, we've uncovered a few insights we want to share with fellow travelers.
Speaker 1:We want to talk about the questions we didn't know who to ask and the options we didn't know we had.
Speaker 2:So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking things up, we are here to cheer you on and assure you that the best is yet to come. Welcome to Uncovered Life Beyond. Hello everyone, Welcome back to Uncovered Life Beyond. This is Naomi.
Speaker 1:And this is Rebecca. So we're back again. Look at us being consistent, you know.
Speaker 2:I'm going to enjoy it while it lasts. I thought school's out Now. You know we can really get on this and just like every other year it turns out having an open schedule can almost be worse for getting things done than having a regular tight, overbooked schedule.
Speaker 1:Well, and you know, I don't know if we've ever said this on the podcast, but we promised each other when we started this that we would only do it as long as it's fun and that we wouldn't get real rigid about ensuring that it happens. And I'm kind of glad we made that promise to each other because it really gives us freedom and I think that helps keep it fun for us freedom, and I think that helps keep it fun for us. It keeps help, it helps keep it fun for me at least.
Speaker 2:Right, I have been thinking along those lines too, because the Buzzcast is a podcast about podcasting Buzzsprout, which is the our host, the host for our podcast, and they were talking about, you know, the things that make for successful podcasts recently, and they were one of the things that they talked about was consistency, and this is not an original thought, of course, that you know.
Speaker 2:It's the consistency showing up every week and showing up every week, right. And I thought to myself, well, that's great, but also I'm glad that we've given ourselves permission to be persistent instead of consistent, right. And then the next week, on the next episode, then they were talking about a list that Apple put out of the top 20 podcasts the last 20 years, or something like that, and one of the things they talked about was the number of high profile shows that aren't consistent, and you know. And so it was kind of balancing out what they were just saying the week before and I was, I felt so vindicated, but I agree, like if we were doing this for our job, well, that's a different, that would be a different situation, right and you know, if someone wants to, and if someone wants to sponsor us, you know great, then we'll be consistent right, we'll figure it out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, out then. But but I love, I think, and for good reason, there's a lot of pressure to monetize whatever our hobby is like. That's kind of like right being as the thing to do, like, oh, it's the thing you love to do, and then you, if you get paid for it, you don't, you know, it feels like you're getting paid for um, for having fun.
Speaker 2:But we know that money changes things and I love having this as a hobby yeah a hobby that costs us money, because it costs us money to host it to do things. We are the ones who are editing and doing all that. So that.
Speaker 2:Well, you're the one that's editing but my point is like I I just don't even have to think about like it can just be for fun and I love that and I just want to encourage anyone out there and I have been well, you, rebecca, have had the misfortune of hearing me on my soapbox countless times. But I think if someone has an opportunity to pursue something they love, they do not need to feel guilty for doing that. Like that is a good thing and it's life giving and just because something, just because a capitalist society decides something is worth money, but you know, you know compensation doesn't mean that that's the only way to value it.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, I've been thinking a lot about chronic illnesses and kind of observing people who struggle with it, and I think it's noteworthy that typically it's females who have a chronic illness, and I think about the ways females are typically the ones who are worked and worked and worked until they break. And I don't have any answers for it, but it's something I think about a lot. And how did we get to the point that? That's kind of where the female value is placed. What is my worthiness if I can't produce?
Speaker 2:Right, and I've also heard that a lot of those psychologically related chronic illnesses have to do with conflicting emotions. Like you know, I love my kids and also being a mother and everything else is totally overwhelming. But I can't say that I'm totally overwhelmed because if I do, then I'll be seen as a bad mother.
Speaker 2:I love this person who is also doing these bad things to me, like those conflicting feelings that we can't express. It's when we never get to express them and they're sitting inside us. That's what makes us sick, I mean, and it's way more complicated than that.
Speaker 1:But I also think there's the side where they are expressed, and then you're kind of shamed for it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's invalidated Absolutely. There's good reason not to talk about it, right, absolutely.
Speaker 1:So I think there's many people who have spoken up and have said I'm tired, I'm overwhelmed, this isn't working.
Speaker 2:Said I'm tired, I'm overwhelmed, this isn't working, but no one seems to care or listen or take it seriously, right? Or I know, when I think about other moms, that I know here in my area and they're good people, people I trust and have confidence and all that, but I know they're stressed just as thin as I am.
Speaker 2:Like you know, they're as busy or busier than I am, so like I hate to ask them, and I know that's a whole can of worms. All that to say that our society does not make it easy for us to get that support and our bodies are keeping the score, and I think that's just becoming more evident all the time. And I I think of Zahn. She's a Facebook content creator. What would we call her?
Speaker 1:Kind of yeah, influencer yeah.
Speaker 2:Influencer, yeah, and she talks a lot about women's issues and and she talks about how our society treats women like toasters. In, you know, in the home, it's like and you get your toaster. The minute your toaster stops working, you get rid of it and get another one. There's no, it's like, if it doesn't serve me, get rid of it. And I think that so many of us are being treated like toasters and being expected to bake bread and then not working. And then it's like well, what's wrong with you? Why are you sick?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, I don't have a solution other than maybe we should be supporting families instead of subsidizing billionaires, but that, I guess, is that would be unethical.
Speaker 1:I say that with a lot of sarcasm and statistically the highest chance of divorce for a female is if she becomes ill.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well and that just plays into that toaster analogy.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, well, it affirms the toaster, analogy. Yeah. So on that bright, happy note, we did kind of start it off cheerfully, didn't we?
Speaker 2:Well, this is kind of what mystifies me is when I look at my life, like right now. In a lot of ways the last two months, my life is as friction free as maybe it's ever been, and yet I still, most days, just feel this bone deep fatigue. And I know I'm not alone in that. I know a lot of people experience that and I guess I'm going wait, I've got, I've had opportunity to rest the last two months, much of the last two months. Why do I still feel so tired? I don't, I don't know. But and there I took it to another bright spot, my point being it's not like life is horrible, except except there is my car situation.
Speaker 1:And car situations are horrible. They are horrible.
Speaker 2:I've been making repairs on this car. I love the car. What do I love about it? I like driving it. I love the look of it. I mean it's kind of the size car that I've wanted for a long time but also it is needing repairs, one after the other, and I get it back from the shop and finally get the alternator working Second alternator, by the way and then the air conditioner stops and that's going to be $1,000.
Speaker 2:And when I looked at I was talking with the manager of the mechanic shop and told her hey, what do you think? Do I need a different car? She's like oh yeah, and she had very specific advice for me and I'm going to call her back and I'm going to get some more advice from her on how to proceed. But I think I need, she said, get a Honda or Toyota. So I'm going to have to call my banker and see what we can do and I might just have to break down and buy a car that's, you know then, less than 10 or 12 years old, which, to be honest, like I think longingly at times about my 2007 Grand Caravan that was so rusty, it looked awful. 2007 Grand Caravan that was so rusty, it looked awful it's. It wheezed and made all kinds of weird sounds, but it wouldn't die and it was paid off and it was. The insurance was cheap but it wouldn't die.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:So, and I couldn't wait to get rid of that car.
Speaker 1:But now you kind of miss it.
Speaker 2:But now I kind of miss it and I'm going oh, do I just bite the bullet and go back to a minivan, go, find yourself a nice Honda or Toyota. Well, I'm going to give that a shot.
Speaker 1:I'm going to. I think you should. I think you should.
Speaker 2:I think so. You had mentioned to me when I was talking with you about this the other day that you know, those of us who've grown up with the very Dave Ramsey influenced approach to money have a really hard time going into debt for a car or we feel a lot of guilt about that kind of thing, and I know that's real for me and I think it's not that that's bad advice. It's just not realistic for all of us.
Speaker 1:Right, particularly if you're a single mom or a female. I mean, you have to have a car that gets you where you need to go and doesn't leave you stranded. It's one thing for Dave Ramsey, a white man with a wife, to back him up, to pick him up if his vehicle breaks down, to say that type of thing, but if you're a single mom and a female, what are your options?
Speaker 2:Right, and I'm not sure if he's the one, it's someone like him. If it's not, him that says things like you know, get an older car and a good mechanic, yeah Well, that's easy to say, but you know that doesn't.
Speaker 1:That's also easy to say if you're a man going into a mechanic shop.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and also if you don't have to have, if you don't have to be at work at a certain time every day, if you don't need a car that's reliable, if you're not driving out of town, driving long distances. I'm not saying that buying a more expensive car is a good investment in terms of dollars and cents, but I'm saying buying an old car that needs lots of repairs is not necessarily safe or realistic for everyone, and we don't. It's not a personal failing on our part if we have to borrow money for a car or make car payments.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So thank you for that. Okay, that is. That is my sunshiny life right now. Tell me about your life. What's going on with you?
Speaker 1:Hey, we are working, we're doing doctor's appointments, trying to coax my garden into producing green beans, putting up with a lot of rain and then a lot of heat. That that pretty much the yeah.
Speaker 2:That sounds delightful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my one kid needs to go to Michigan about once a month now, which is about a three and a half hour drive to a clinic, and of course our insurance doesn't accept them or they don't accept our insurance. I'm now unclear which way that goes, but anyway, it's kind of a last ditch effort to find some help, so I've been working more hours to help cover that too. So yeah, that's pretty much my summer.
Speaker 2:I've heard different people talk about how you know the idea that you just have 18 summers with your kids and then that's it, that you know.
Speaker 1:Kind of critiquing that and man you know, why don't we just shame, why don't we just shame people like for Pete's sake.
Speaker 2:Well, and I guess I'm just thinking like your family and many, many other families are a good example of how that is not how it works for for a lot of us and that, and that your kids need you and that the caregiving continues even after somebody turns 18. And caregiving is. Our society treats caregiving as though it's like this kind of unique thing, but the reality is every last one of us needs caregiving at some point in our lives.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Like this is not going away.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But we treat it as though it, as though it's some kind of special kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Right, well, and you know they want to talk about. The 18 summers is all you have, or whatever, but yet, oh my goodness, are you. Do you have a college fund? And what do you do if your kid has a chronic illness? Or what do you do if you know, whatever life happens? So don't, don't guilt me about my 18 summers. And how about talking just more about building relationships? So, even so, your kids want to vacation with you when they're 2021. I mean, like that's what they want to do.
Speaker 2:That they want to spend time with you, right, right, so let's drop the guilt about.
Speaker 1:All you have is 18 summers, like, let's just drop it and just support each other for wherever we find ourselves. It's kind of what life is, I agree, but anyway, enough about our little lives. What is our conversation for today? Can you believe we're going to talk about something other than ourselves?
Speaker 2:Well, we're going to have to put a chapter marker in here, so folks who want to skip over the chitchat can do that.
Speaker 2:There you go, there you go you know there's some podcasts I love the chitchat and others not so much and so giving folks an option, that might be what we need to do. So our conversation today is a response to a letter we got from a listener who reached out to us after our April episode with Patricia Lewis, where we were talking about what it means to live a life of continuous learning. Rebecca, do you want to read it for our listeners? And this is we're sharing this with our listeners' permission and taking out some of the identifying details. The message of the letter resonated with us and I think it will resonate with the rest of our listeners too.
Speaker 1:And thank you so much for sending in this letter and email or I guess it's an email and for those of you who do share your thoughts with us, please know we so appreciate it and I think it's really cool how it kind of continues the conversation and oftentimes there's so much you could say about something and I like the way it keeps developing. But she wrote, one of the brief themes was the encouragement to learn more and seek out information. Basically, I think you're talking about curiosity. I hear that a lot. Be curious, nurture your curiosity, and I think it was Oprah that said you can't be curious if you do not feel safe. How true.
Speaker 1:I think about boys in school and I don't know if this is still current that could ask questions, push boundaries and be okay to some degree. Girls, on the other hand, can be shamed for asking certain questions or trying to push the limits. And the writer continues saying she knows two sisters who are biracial, adopted several years ago. They are teens now in an almost entirely white school. A black girl that is curious, a black girl that challenges authority, a black teenager that asks the wrong questions. Wow, the stories I can tell you. Let's just say I am a firm believer that a person must feel safe somehow, internally, externally, whatever to venture out and be willing to learn. We can tease that apart for a while. Why do some Amish kids feel safe enough to challenge and ask and others don't how much is the makeup of the individual and how much is the environment? And boy, doesn't that last sentence or that last paragraph really emphasize what we talked about from the Elizabethtown symposium as well what we talked about from the Elizabethtown symposium as well.
Speaker 2:That's right. The line that really stuck with me was you cannot be curious if you don't feel safe. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I wonder if it's almost more of a thing of you. Can't be curious if you care about safety?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, and this is why today's episode is called the Courage to Ask why, because, as simple and beautiful as curiosity sounds, it's not equally encouraged for everyone, and I think it's important to talk about the fact that it is that way, and why and how gender, race, religious upbringing all these different factors can shape whether we feel free to ask hard questions or whether we're shamed or punished or discouraged from even trying.
Speaker 2:And that leads us to a larger question of what it takes to stay curious in unsafe places and how power structures I mean everything from church to school to family discourage questioning in ways that are often invisible or just kind of beneath the surface until we name it. Sometimes it is explicit and other times it's implicit, and sometimes, when it's implicit, it's almost harder to identify and push back against. And I think that leads us to a concluding question of what would it look like to build communities that don't just tolerate curiosity but actually nurture it? So let's get into it when you hear the quote you cannot be curious if you do not feel safe. What comes up for you? What does safety mean there for you?
Speaker 1:I think so often, when people dare to ask questions that make other people feel uncomfortable, that is when the shame, punishments, the guilt sets in, and I think it's interesting how often we are conditioned to ensure that those in authority, particularly the males around us, are comfortable.
Speaker 2:Can we drill down on that word comfortable or uncomfortable, Because that's one of those words that we use a lot to mean a lot of different situations. What is the discomfort we're talking about in the situation you just described? The kinds of situations?
Speaker 1:Well, don't societies have status quos in order to nurture this sense of we know what to expect. We feel comfortable in this sense of social norms, yeah, and then if someone comes in and at all disrupts that, it's usually not taken kindly. But I think also, females are also, are expected to nurture physical comfort in others. Are you hungry? Oh, let me cook you a meal. Do you have dirty laundry? All right, let me go do your laundry. Oh, the bathroom's messy. Yes, I'll go clean it. We are literally taught to do that for the men in our lives as well.
Speaker 2:Make things comfortable for them.
Speaker 1:Right, I think there's a lot of varying ways in which we're taught to do this, ways in which we're taught to do this, but I feel like questions and challenging the status quo creates a disturbance that people who aren't emotionally healthy often don't know what to do with.
Speaker 2:Right, and I would also add to that people who are kind of hanging on to their position of power control their position, of their elevated position in the hierarchy.
Speaker 1:Oh, those who are benefiting from it.
Speaker 2:Those who are benefiting from it. Right, yeah, yeah. Anything that upsets the social norm that benefits them are going to feel uncomfortable Right Right, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:That benefits them, are going to feel uncomfortable Right, right, absolutely Absolutely. So I think kind of any situation where you have that real clear distinction of a hierarchical power setup that that's. This dynamic is at play. You know, being able-bodied or any other number of categories right, where one category is given more status than another and so the higher you are in that status then the more leeway there is for you to question or push back against the norms.
Speaker 1:I mean we get the line boys will be boys where little girls are supposed to be angels and sugar and spice and everything nice right and then and then you have girls, and maybe particularly black girls, who get policed for attitude or disrespect, and we're taught early on, we're socialized how to anticipate what other people might need from us or how they perceive us. People might need from us or how they perceive us. And I can't imagine like I experienced that as a white female and I can't imagine how that scrutiny is compounded for a black girl who dares to be curious in a white space.
Speaker 2:Right right and having a sister of color, having friends of color. I know this is very real and it's heartbreaking to me how often even the people, the well-meaning people, the ones who would you would hope would be supportive of them, are not of them are not and instead they carry out that policing for attitude or disrespect.
Speaker 1:You know I saw a reel the other day. That was kind of interesting and you know it was probably scripted, but I thought the message was good. Mom was in line at Starbucks ordering her coffee. Kid is in the backseat and says, mom, can I have a cookie? And mom turns around and says no, we have cookies at home. And the kid is quiet for like two seconds and says, well, we have coffee at home. And mom just kind of gets this look on her face like well, crap, and turns to the Starbucks order booth and says add a cookie to the order, please. But I think somehow we need to learn to allow others to influence us, and maybe particularly those who have less power than we do Like. How do we learn to be open to the questions that those who have less power, either with age or social structures or hierarchy or even in religious settings, how do we allow those people to ask those types of questions?
Speaker 2:Right, and I think that also gets at this question of you know, the role of the environment and the individual. And our letter writer was asking you know, what is it that makes someone? What is it that prompts someone to be more curious? So, personality can certainly enter into it.
Speaker 2:Some are just more naturally curious than others. But then there's also the influence of an environment. I mean, I think of things like some of these extreme parenting methods like blanket training. That is beating literally beating curiosity out of kids. That is literally beating curiosity out of kids before they can even talk. It's child abuse. But even if it's not blanket training, there are other ways that those messages are sent as well. Maybe they're even, maybe on the face of it, maybe a little less brutal, but but are still effective at shutting down that curiosity and communicating to children, even young children, that it's not something that's encouraged. And yet then still some kids break free and others stay compliant, and you can't predict which kind of upbringing is going to result in a kid staying compliant or breaking free when they get older.
Speaker 1:You know something people always said. I mean my mom would say it. I remember Grandma Peachy saying it. I mean it was said in any type of child training environment. I think Dobson said this you have to break their will, not their spirit. I mean, can we just call bullshit on that? Can we just call bullshit?
Speaker 2:You know what I hear in that statement. What I hear is break the child's will so that they are compliant and do what I want them to do, but without the negative consequences of breaking a child's will. Like you can't have your cake and eat it too, folks. And that's what I hear in that statement.
Speaker 1:And to dig even a little bit deeper on that, it's a justification to be cruel. Yes, it is, yes, it's a justification to literally get kids to respond on demand. Like a toaster or a robot Like, yeah, like a robot.
Speaker 2:Something I've noticed about what some of those characteristics or those factors can be that go along with someone breaking free, asking the forbidden questions right versus staying compliant, is that it's often when there is a breakdown in both the individual's relationship with family and church, like I see people who have maybe a really difficult family situation but if they're, if they have still have confidence in their church family and the church community, they'll stick around, or vice versa. And I think that's often when those internal contradictions become so obvious that the individual can no longer accept you know pat answers or thought stopping cliches that that's often when they the point at which they break free.
Speaker 1:Well, right, because it goes back to the original thought or the original statement. It's not safe anyway, so why not challenge it? Like, if my environment is not safe, if my church isn't safe, if my home life isn't safe, like what's happening is not working. So it like why not ask questions, why not disrupt the system? Because this isn't working, this isn't safe anyway.
Speaker 2:Right, right. And I think of one of the FLDS memoirs about someone who left the polygamous sack trying so hard to be faithful. So trying so hard to be faithful, and when she was finally told, look, you're going to hell, because she wasn't compliant enough, even though she was trying so hard or whatever it was, you know that she wasn't meeting expectations. She was like, hey, I'm going to hell anyway, I might as well have fun with what I have left of life. Yeah, and so it's like if I don't have access to safety, no matter how hard I try, then what's the point?
Speaker 1:And I don't think religious communities understand what happens to an individual when they no longer care about the threat of hell. Yeah, when they no longer care about the threat of hell yeah, when a person no longer cares about the threat of hell, it completely changes the way they view life and how they show up in life Absolutely. And it's not always as destructive as the religious community would like you to believe too. It doesn't mean that they just say, oh well, I'm just going to go out and kill and rape and do whatever I want to do. That narrative is so bullshit stupid it doesn't even make sense. But when you lose and get rid of this fear of hell, it allows you to show up in a different way. You show up the way you want to show up, because that's the type of person I want to be.
Speaker 2:Right, and the way that that fear of hell, or the threat of hell, is lost is usually through seeing or coming to terms with the emperor having no clothes. It's through coming face to face with those beliefs or the rules, the authority figures, and losing confidence that they are what they claim to be, no longer being able to deny that water is wet.
Speaker 1:You know, I've often wondered, and I am like, I'm truly wondering, if a lot of these religious leaders believe in hell themselves, the amount of quote, sin and abuse that they strategically hide and cover up for. They cannot believe that there's a day of judgment.
Speaker 2:Oh, but you just have to say the magic words. They can't believe that? Yeah, oh, but you have to say the magic words. They can't believe that, yeah Well. And if they do believe in it, yeah. I can't imagine the kind of cognitive dissonance, the kind of mental calisthenics they have to go through to make it all make sense and to be okay with human beings suffering for eternity. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:Well, there's a phrase, and I don't know where I saw it, but if man is created in the image of God, man is God. Yeah, and I think oftentimes these leaders believe they are God. Yeah yeah, and God got by with doing some crazy stuff in the Old Testament Crazy stuff. And if God got by with doing some of that crazy stuff, then why shouldn't they?
Speaker 2:And by crazy you mean cruel right.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and for me, that was a huge point in my deconstruction was when I went wait, yeah, here are all these charlatans, here are all these snake oil salesmen claiming to speak for God. What if they are? You know, what if God is as slimy as they are? And what you're talking about when you read through, especially in the Old Testament, the genocide that was commanded, and to say, yep, this is justice? Well, that would explain a lot, something that's been helpful for me to understand why critical thinking is so offensive to some people and why it. I mean and it's not just a religious thing, it's also in secular environments too. I mean being woke, having empathy, all these things right are considered.
Speaker 2:These are considered bad things now by the powers that be, and one way that it's been helpful for me to think of this conceptually is how that, through most of Western European history, people have imagined society as a giant pyramid that was built exactly the way it should be. So you've got kings, nobles at the top and then working your way all the way down to the peasants at the very bottom, and this wasn't just a very practical way to get the farm work done, but this was God's will, and knowing your place in life was how you showed your devotion to God, where you showed your morality, and everyone was taught that they had a natural place and questioning it was like questioning the divine order of the universe. And then, of course, this also got carried over into gender race, you know, and all those categories as well.
Speaker 1:But then and this was deep not just in society, but also philosophy came along and made this valid. They tried to make this very valid. Like it's deep in philosophy, it's deep in religion. Everyone who could benefit from it latched onto it.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely. The doctrine of discovery. Yeah, so colonialism, just yes, the tentacles reached. So far.
Speaker 1:So it's very deep in how much of our society is set up. It wasn't just a, a blip, yeah, or a passing notion. Yeah, exactly Everyone in power dug into it.
Speaker 2:Right, and this was a context in which well, that t-shirt you were wearing the other week, I loved. It was like they didn't burn witches, they burned women. But when you hear about some of the ways that they determined that a woman was a witch, you know, and it was like if she will throw her in the lake, and if she drowns she was innocent, and if she swims she's guilty, she's a witch, and then gets killed anyway. That was considered justice. But then you have the scientific revolution come along, and people start asking why the world worked the way that it did, instead of just assuming well, this is how things have been set up and this is what we're going to go with, and not just physically. Obviously, there was that right, which is why they were studying. Scientists were studying the natural world and observing things, and they were figuring out like oh wait, maybe germs are the cause of illness rather than evil spirits, maybe somebody who has a health issue isn't cursed by a witch, but maybe there's a physical explanation for it, and also socially. So instead of knocking the pyramid down, though, which is what could have happened, many of these thinkers just look for new ways to explain and defend it, including philosophy, like you pointed out, and they turn to science, biology, natural law. You know, women are just naturally this way, men are just naturally this way, and that's why we have to make tons and tons and tons of artificial laws so that these natural laws aren't broken to justify the same old hierarchies. And it was like repainting the pyramid and calling it progress, critical theories. And when I'm talking about critical theories here, I'm thinking of, like you know, the kinds of things that well, that I was introduced to in college and I think that's where a lot of people are introduced to them. But there's, you know, you don't have to go to college, you can, you can get introduced these other places as well. Um, but especially like from the tradition of karl marx, that they essentially flipped that script and they said whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Speaker 2:What if that pyramid isn't natural or right? What if it's just a system built by the powerful to keep their power and to exploit the less powerful? What if this isn't natural? And so that then started this other vein of thought, diametrically opposed to this standard pyramid structure of power, or, as it's familiarly known today, being woke. It just means becoming aware of how our society trains us, socializes us to see that pyramid is norm and those. You know that the people in power are there because they are more hardworking or because they are more moral, or because they're smarter and understanding. We're trained to see it that way, even if it's unfair, even if it's unfair, even if that's not necessarily true.
Speaker 2:And so bringing critical thought to this, then means asking who built the structure, who benefits and what might it look like to build something different? So, for example, slavery. Slavery was not natural. There were tons and tons of laws and tons and tons of violence and effort that went into building that structure, and during the time of abolition, the pro-slavery argument was that, oh, our society would collapse without slavery. This is how, this is. The only way we can, you know, we can survive as a civilized society is to have slavery. Well, guess what it turns out? All they needed was women.
Speaker 2:That too. Also, having a five day work week was supposed to end society and civilization as we know it. Uh, having a or an eight-hour work, eight-hour work day sorry, eight-hour work day, five-day work week, having minimum wage, was going to end society as we know it. It is really, really interesting when you start looking at political issues through this lens of who is setting this up, who is benefiting from it and what are some other options. And I think the most important thing to remember is that whenever we're put in a situation where we're only given two options, almost inevitably we are being shuttled into, we're being controlled, we're being controlled by the powers that be. They're telling us that there are only two options so that we will choose the option they want us to choose, and they discourage questioning because questioning threatens to bring down the whole house of cards.
Speaker 1:And I think I remember conversations as a kid saying but wait, this isn't fair. It's not fair that the boys get to do this and women don't, or it's not fair that men get to be preachers and women can't, or it's not fair, you know, whatever. And I remember being told it's not about fair or unfair, it's God's rules, it's the way God ordained it. And so when you're taught that justice or fairness isn't even considered, it opens up this whole new power structure. Because what can you?
Speaker 2:argue with you can't, and that's the thing. As someone who studies rhetoric, rhetoric, argumentation, good reasons only works in a situation where there is a possibility of persuasion. In the case of a rigid power structure, there's no persuasion because there's no arguing with violence.
Speaker 1:And it doesn't matter if the person in authority has coffee at home, they still get their coffee from Starbucks.
Speaker 2:They don't have to get their cookie.
Speaker 1:It doesn't have to be consistent, it does not have to be fair and there's no way to influence that logic.
Speaker 2:And there's no way to influence that logic, Right? Because in that situation that you described, that question influenced the mother, but the mother allowed herself to be influenced.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly and in a tyrannical situation or in a lot of institutional situations that's considered insubordination. But even to bring it closer home back to and we talked about this earlier women are saying it's not fair that I'm doing all the emotional work, it's not fair that I'm doing all this labor at home and being unpaid, or it's not fair that I have to be a stay-at-home mom and then, when I'm 40, try to get a job that pays enough money. Even when women are saying this isn't fair, this is not working, it doesn't matter because this is the way it is, this is the way God set things up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what's the saying? God said it. That settles it. No, god said it.
Speaker 1:I believe it. God said it, I believe it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I believe it, that settles it. Settles it yeah, but yeah shuts down all dialogue. And I think about all the ways this has been reinforced in so many conservative, fundamentalist religious contexts. There's Gothard's umbrella of authority. That has certainly made the rounds, and this idea. You know that God's up at the top, man, woman, children at the bottom right.
Speaker 1:That umbrella needs to disappear.
Speaker 2:I think of teachings like touch not the Lord's, anointed as a message that even when a authority and authority figure is doing something wrong, you shouldn't speak against it, you should just go with it, because, or just pray.
Speaker 1:Just pray because God, like that's what you're told over and over, just pray about it.
Speaker 2:I mean, gothard taught that you just pray about it, that's the only which is code for shut up and don't do anything about it.
Speaker 1:Well, but you know, if it's actually wrong, if it's actually wrong and you're submissive and pray about it, then that opens up the door for God to work. When you're doing the right thing and when your heart is the way it should be, then, and only then, can God work in authority.
Speaker 2:Right and, interestingly enough, god usually just lets them do their thing.
Speaker 1:Interestingly enough, that is is the worst form of gaslighting. That is the worst form of insanity. Like that creates insanity, yeah.
Speaker 2:Thinking of curiosity as just not even questioning the status quo but just having having questions how that has been discouraged. I think about sermons I've heard, where questions were compared to the fall in the Garden of Eden, where Adam and Eve started with the question yea hath God said, did God really say this? And the idea was that if you take something that is like an established norm in your community and say, wait, does the Bible really say this? That that was an act of rebellion. To go back and check the status quo against the word of God was rebellion. That's what broke my brain, as in my late teens when I realized like wait a minute, wait a minute, aren't we supposed to be Anabaptists and Biblicists? When the substance of that message sunk in with me, that's when I lost confidence.
Speaker 2:And I think also another way you see that pyramid reinforced is in the Anabaptist emphasis on forgiveness in asymmetrical power relationships. And you know, and I think there is so much value in Anabaptist teachings on pacifism and I can understand why that was a good strategic move politically in the movement at the time where it is cruel and inhumane, because when this is brought into personal relationships and in the same way you just said you know, go pray about it and let God work. It's like someone in power harms someone with less power, and it's not just the person with less power saying I'm going to forgive them, it's the community coming around and bulldozing them into saying you must forgive them. And it's a way of just brushing it all under the rug and making the problem go away, and then the community doesn't have to deal with the embarrassing reality of a leader who's not living up to their professed morals.
Speaker 1:Or order to maintain this notion of pacifism. We throw the marginalized and the abused under the bus in the name of pacifism, and that is not the intent. And I want to be really clear here. I know the Amish get criticized a lot for the abuse that they have going on in their circles, and that is true. But you know what? The rest of the Anabaptist world isn't much better, whether we have William McGrath, whether we have Cam Ministries, whether we have John Henry Yoder, like the woke Mennonites don't know what to do with John Henry Yoder. Am I using? Am I saying his name right? It's John Henry, right.
Speaker 2:No, John Howard John.
Speaker 1:Howard Yoder yeah, I was like Henry's, not right.
Speaker 2:John.
Speaker 1:Howard Yoder. Yeah, the woke Anabaptists don't know what to do with him. I'm not okay with blaming the Amish for having or for hiding abuse without addressing the beachies, the beachy Mennonites, the whatever brand, the MCUSA groups they all hide abuse, and I think we need to get really honest about that.
Speaker 2:It's not dependent on just being very conservative, correct. That's not right Absolutely. And to go beyond our background, I mean we've just in the last 20 years have seen so many scandals, so much sexual assault, not just the sexual assaults that has been happening in religious institutions being exposed, but the cover ups. And that's the real scandal is the cover ups and the extent to which the Catholic Church, the Southern Baptist Convention and we just go down the line like find me an organization.
Speaker 1:Find me a religious organization.
Speaker 2:That is not affected by this right. Bodies Behind the Bus recently did an episode on, kind of an update on the Southern Baptist Convention's failure to protect victims. Highly recommend that episode for a sense of what is going on. Essentially, instead of addressing the problems that have been brought before them, they are essentially doubling down on their decision to protect predators. They are ostracizing victims.
Speaker 2:It's not just ignoring victims if only we're ignoring. No, it is outright ostracization and cruelty. And it's now to the point where the folks who have been active as advocates in trying to bring change to the Southern Baptist Convention are essentially giving it up as a lost cause, and I don't blame them. I think the Southern Baptist Convention are essentially giving it up as a lost cause and I don't blame them. I think the Southern Baptist Convention is telling us who they are. They have not been able to come to terms with their history of racism and down the line, and what they are making clear is that these churches are about consolidating power and money and they don't care who gets hurt in the process. And they're telling us who they are, so let's believe them.
Speaker 1:You know, I think it's so funny and this is probably one of the most hidden Bible verses. But Jude 22 says be merciful to those who doubt. Another translation says and you must show mercy to those whose faith is wavering. I think for me, the place where I saw this the most was Rachel Held Evans, and every time I speak about Rachel Held Evans I have so many conflicting emotions. She did some things very, very well. Towards the end there were some things that I was really bothered by, but what she did do so well was open her platform to those who see faith differently, to those who are questioning faith, and when I think about faith actually working, I think this summarizes it so well she this is what God's kingdom is like A bunch of outcasts and oddballs gathered at a table, not because they are rich or worthy or good, but because they are hungry, because they said yes, and there's always room for one more.
Speaker 1:And I think it's funny because I mean, when you think about the disciples, they were not a powerful, well-to-do batch of people. I mean, they were misfits. They had all the questions. We mock them for their questions, but yet we think we have to be.
Speaker 2:I don't know how you get to mocking the disciples for their questions, when that was literally what Jesus used to start his ministry of how I mean all the Bible verses and chapters that I've memorized and studied and read and reread, and all that over the years. Yeah, I mean, I don't have it all memorized by a long shot, but you know I. But I recognize passages when I see them. Be merciful to those who doubt and you must show, or or the other reading was you must show mercy to those whose faith is wavering, like wow, wow that is, and yet we literally have this song.
Speaker 1:Don't Be a Doubting Thomas.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah I mean, you know, and sometimes I look at the most high profile religious folks these days and it's like if Jesus said it, they run screaming from it. That's really what it looks like, yeah.
Speaker 1:When you think about the refugee situation, horrible horrible. Like I don't understand how anyone who calls themselves Christian is okay with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't get it Right, and yet they will go screaming over issues that the Bible says nothing about Right. I want to acknowledge some secular ways that these hierarchies can show up right, this pyramid of well. This is just the way it's supposed to be. I think schools are a place where you can see this kind of dynamic, especially when education is seen as well. The teacher is here giving the information Paolo Freire, and he's a south american writer who talked about liberatory education and he talks about the banking model of education, where, you know, the teacher gives the students information, the students are supposed to memorize it and then be able to spit it back out, so like a bank account account or like CLE or BCE or ACN.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what.
Speaker 2:That's all about that's called rote learning. Yes, exactly, it has been debunked numerous times.
Speaker 2:And what is a much better way to learn is to approach learning as exploration and encourage questioning, encourage curiosity in students. I mean, that's just like no, yeah, there's just no question about it. And even though in educational theory that's now well established, we still can see remnants of that, because historically, that teacher who had all the answers was white and male and instead of learning being prioritized, it was respect for authority that was being prioritized, and I think we see that remnants of that still today. And then, of course, we talked about racialized gender hierarchies. You know who gets the benefit of the doubt.
Speaker 2:I think about how often in well, this is something we talked about a couple months ago in our episode about when he's progressive and public and patriarchal at home how so many people still kind of maintain these gender hierarchies, even though and also racial, even though we claim we're not racist, we claim we're not sexist.
Speaker 2:And yet if you have, say, a Black person who dares to question the status quo, if you have a woman who doesn't comply with the accepted norms of femininity, how quickly they get in trouble. And it's like this assumption, like, even though we're not going to officially enforce those hierarchies, we don't, we claim we don't believe in them. As soon as someone doesn't act in accordance with them, then we call. We have all kinds of names for them and that hierarchy is in us and we can't really get to the bottom of it until we recognize how we've been socialized into it, even if we intellectually don't agree with it. We have to recognize how those tendencies lie within us and, in the words of Terry wheel, we need those who are in power to sit down and the weak to stand up.
Speaker 1:And I think something that we often forget to understand and even discuss is this difference between having respect for authority and and rubbing the ego of authority, and I think there's a huge difference.
Speaker 2:Well, respect can mean so many different things, right.
Speaker 1:And we need to make a difference. Because pacifying someone's ego, I don't know, I'm too old for that yeah, and I think there's a difference. I think everyone deserves the time of day. That's just basic respect. To me. Everyone deserves to be heard, acknowledged, like people who refuse to acknowledge someone they know in public always kind of break my brain. To me that feels like literally saying you don't deserve the time of day, and to me that's basic respect. You don't deserve the time of day and to me that's basic respect. You don't deserve to be acknowledged.
Speaker 2:Your humanness doesn't deserve to be acknowledged, and I think, though, sometimes respect can be used as deference, and we're often expected to treat authority figures with deference, but authority figures aren't expected to treat underlings, to acknowledge their basic humanity of underling Right, like the other day I was at work and this pastor and his wife came in and I was talking to another customer at the other end of the bar.
Speaker 1:So I tapped a coworker and motioned to the pastor and his wife that just came in and obviously she didn't know who they were, but meanwhile and I pointed her in their direction and then, before I went back to talking to my customer, I acknowledged her and said hi, and you know, whatever, and I got nothing and I remember being like that. To me that is a prime example of someone in authority who wants to be respected without giving respect.
Speaker 2:Right. I think that's one of those ways that hierarchies get maintained. And then there's also this thing of masking hierarchies, like pretending they aren't there, and this is this, I think, can take the form of phrases like servant leadership, or, you know, we accept everyone, or you know, questions are welcome. But then there's another part to it that that's left unsaid, and when you scratch a little bit beneath the surface, you find, oh yeah, no, they're just ignoring the hierarchy that absolutely is there.
Speaker 1:And the hierarchy that's serving them Right. The whole concept of servant leadership kind of breaks my brain. I think John C Maxwell is one of the most conniving and manipulative people ever, and I've read all his books. What I perceive him as doing is collecting himself a group of mostly white men who want power, and he teaches them to get that power While pretending they aren't. And he teaches them to get that power While pretending they aren't, while pretending they aren't. And it's appalling to me when these local leadership groups are created and it's always attempting to attract people with the most money. Somehow we have decided that all it takes to be a leader is money. It doesn't matter if you were born into it, it doesn't matter if you were honest in your dealings, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2:But they always use enough of a humble language, to make it sound good, to make it difficult to argue against.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And then I hear stories of them arguing amongst each other, even, and even in that there's a vying for quote leadership and arguing about who gets paid to speak and how much they get paid to speak. And that's what we're calling leadership.
Speaker 2:And my guess Servant leadership right yes.
Speaker 1:Yes, and my guess is, for all the quote leaders that show up at these seminars or symposiums, or whatever they want to call them, they have an admin back at their place of employment who's doing all the real leadership work for them, and it's probably Actual, day-to leadership work for them and it's probably actual day-to-day work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and keeping track of everything, yeah.
Speaker 1:And oftentimes you will see a man who's out there being the leader in the community and his wife is at home in the office making it all happen, right. So don't come at me with this servant leadership thing. It is not honest, it's not transparent, it's a grab for ego, it's a grab for status, it's a grab for power and even within that, you hear these conversations about having vigorous debate and conversation, as if it's like an open kind of thing, like encouraging discussion, encouraging give and take, encouraging all that, yeah Well and I think you see this within religious circles, you see this at religious Bible schools.
Speaker 1:You see it a lot. And when I think about this whole notion of debate and asking questions, the one thing that pops up sometimes is this notion of it's not about asking the question, it's what you do with the question. Religious communities like to say that. It always breaks my brain, but also Noam Chomsky has a quote that I always think about, that I always think about. The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion but allow very lively debate within that spectrum. And I think we do that and we think we're being open, we think we're being innovative, but we're really just regurgitating the same ideas.
Speaker 2:Right. Our political environment reeks of this, where, instead of seeing issues as having multiple sides, it's just two sides, as if any issue is that simple, and yet what that does, then, is limit. It creates a false choice, and it limits our conversation to being what the powers that be want us to be talking about. It distracts us from other things that maybe would serve our interests.
Speaker 1:It also creates a very us versus them attitude. Yeah, Like it really digs into that dynamic which really is not serving us well Not at all.
Speaker 2:So how do we cultivate curiosity and unsafe spaces? I mean, we have to acknowledge that there are good reasons that people hesitate to say what they're really thinking.
Speaker 1:Right, because saying what you really think can limit your job opportunities. It can limit so much in a social network and your credibility.
Speaker 2:It can limit your credibility. It can limit what. It can very quickly make you an outcast.
Speaker 1:Right, because you're challenging those hierarchy norms that are working for those who have power, and I think that that is something really real and I don't know how you get to a place where you just don't care, like I feel, like I'm kind of there, but I'm not sure how I got there.
Speaker 2:I can identify with that At some point. It's understanding that that fear, it's understanding that there's something more important than the fear. This is why someone will run into a burning building to save someone that they really care about or to save someone that's in there is because something is more important than the fear of danger. And so I'm saying, if we are standing on principle, if we see a situation where not asking, we're not pointing out that the emperor has no clothes is going to hurt someone, right, or whatever the value is then our value can help us override that fear in the moment, or at least help us see oh wait, that fear is not the most important thing.
Speaker 1:Right, and yes, I think there's that. But I think even deeper than that, and perhaps this is somewhat selfish now that I'm like saying it out loud, but it's all of a sudden understanding that it's not working anyway.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh, abs, yes, yes. And that fear starts. It starts to look like a. We start to see through the fear.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you realize oh wait, this is not.
Speaker 1:what is the worst thing that can happen? Yeah, Because by me playing the game I probably won't make it anyway.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I'm not gonna, you're not gonna win anyway. Yeah, because the game's rigged against you. And you know and here's the thing that I think is something worth thinking about that often in places where curiosity is most discouraged, right where groupthink or you know whether it's you know implicitly through groupthink or explicitly oftentimes in those places asking questions can be especially important. I mean, that can be a crucial act of truth-telling and resistance against an oppressive status quo. And so seeing that questioning as an act of resistance I think can be empowering.
Speaker 2:Again, not saying in every situation, everywhere is the thing to do, because when a cop stops me, I'm not arguing with the cop Because I know the cop has a handheld killing machine and I'm not going to argue. But in other situations, where there is someone who maybe has more social status than I do, if I can recognize that fear as being a way to prop up unjust systems, that helps me see through the fear and see something more important and reach for that. Something that can grow out of that process, then is developing internal safety within ourselves, that self-trust, believing that we are seeing what we're seeing, believing the evidence in front of us, believing in what we value and in taking steps toward that, whether that is community, whether that is whatever that is, from that place of confidence, we won't be surprised then when those who don't share our values don't validate us. Instead of seeking validation from those who don't share values, we'll seek connection with those who do, and I think asking those questions internally is a place to start building that confidence before we ever express them.
Speaker 1:Right and within that self-trust and building that confidence, before we ever express them Right and within that self trust and building that confidence, it's this, this being okay, the sense of being okay with getting it wrong. Yeah, all those quote leaders have got it wrong 1000 times. They just have more money, resources, they have more status to forgive that. And there's right and there's, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know the Bible verse love forgives a multitude of sins.
Speaker 2:It's not love. It's not love it's money.
Speaker 1:It's money. Money covers a multitude of sins, but sometimes just the other day, a friend made the comment that you know that was my mistake to make, just let me do it. And I think about that a lot, like, yeah, sometimes it's my mistake to make, let me do it. And I think we need to be okay with making mistakes, owning mistakes and allowing other people to make their mistakes too.
Speaker 2:I love that. I love your notes here in our outline about being willing to live without answers.
Speaker 1:I am almost convinced that there are some questions that we don't need to have answers for. I don't think there's supposed to be answers for certain questions, and I would argue that that's what real faith looks like.
Speaker 2:Are you in that? Are you also saying that it's still worth asking the question even if there's not a clear answer?
Speaker 1:Yes, because there's so much beauty within that there's so much like there is a beauty and a wisdom. I think that comes from acknowledging and living in the mystery and in that unknown.
Speaker 2:And it can open up so many doors of possibilities that and help us imagine ways that things could be.
Speaker 1:You know, there's the verse where Mary pondered these things in her heart Mm, hmm, and I sometimes think about that. I mean, I know this is different and I'm not trying to spiritualize asking questions at all. But I do think there's some things that you can ponder in your heart, and you can even then say them out loud and give up the notion of having to have absolute truth and absolute facts in philosophy and I forget which philosopher it was. Was it Plato? He talks about? You know, having this perfect chair the original ideal yeah.
Speaker 1:And you know, we create different versions of this perfect chair and there needs to be this quest for the perfect chair and I'm always shocked how easily Christians believe and I think any faith practice does this they believe they have the perfect version of the chair they found.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and everybody's just trying to get to the truth they have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I always think that's so sad.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like it is so sad, how limiting. Yeah, you know, when we think about curiosity and the importance of it and the places where it's an option right or not can really be an important signal, like when we're in a situation where we feel safe, we feel seen, we're allowed to wonder out loud, we're allowed to ponder, to use the word you just used that communicates, that's a way of knowing that we are in an emotionally safe place. And when people don't feel that sense of safety, it's not a personal failing, but it is saying something about the environment they find themselves in. It probably is the result of a system that has trained them to stay silent in that situation. But, as we wrap up here, that our listeners can take with them the inspiration to ask if an environment they are in is giving them the space to ask questions and why or why not. You know what part of that is internal pressure, what part of that is external pressure and whether or not that context is, and to seek connection with environments that do welcome curiosity.
Speaker 1:As well as creating environments that invite curiosity.
Speaker 2:It's worth remembering that the riskier it feels to ask the questions, the more urgent those questions probably are.
Speaker 1:Oof, that's a tough one, but I think it's so true. And here are a few thoughts we want to leave you with. When was the first time you remember feeling safe enough to ask hard questions but then realized it wasn't safe after all? I think oftentimes, as kids, we think we're safe and we think a question just makes sense to ask. But this doesn't make sense. So you ask that hard question and in asking the question you realize that it wasn't safe after all, and that is evidenced by the way you were then discouraged, shamed, maybe even punished for being curious, and you were taught not to challenge rules, and you were discouraged from wanting to understand more than what you were supposed to you were supposed to. As always, we'd love to hear your story. You can send us a voice memo, an email or even a text. Just use the link in the show notes.
Speaker 2:And thanks once more to our wonderful listener who sent this question in. We always love to hear from you and all our listeners. We love those questions and the way that they extend our conversation and even the way we think Right. So, as always, if this episode stirred something in, you share it with a friend, maybe somebody who is asking quiet questions of their own right now. As always, friends, thanks for listening. Until next time, stay curious and stay courageous.
