Uncovered: Life Beyond
Join the conversations of Rebecca and Naomi, two ex-Amish Mennonite women who jumped the proverbial fence in their younger years and later experienced college as first-gen, non-traditional students. They discuss pursuing formal education while raising a family, navigating the hidden curriculum of academia, and other dimensions of reimagining a life beyond high-demand religion. Send your questions to uncoveredlifebeyond@gmail.com.
Uncovered: Life Beyond
54. Deconstructing "Nice Guys": When He's Progressive in Public but Patriarchal at Home
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Rebecca and Naomi explore how men in progressive spaces often default to patriarchal behaviors when challenged, despite claiming to be allies and feminists.
• Deconstruction requires ongoing work rather than simply changing labels or terminology
• Tim Whitaker and The New Evangelicals controversy reveals common patterns of male entitlement
• Men who claim to be allies often revert to control tactics when their authority is questioned
• The "fake ally playbook" includes expecting women to manage emotional labor without recognition
• Weaponizing women's trauma to discredit their concerns is a common gaslighting technique
• Mediation often functions as image management rather than genuine reconciliation
• Women are socialized to treat men's perspectives as authoritative while questioning their own
• Authentic allies demonstrate humility, share domestic responsibilities, and listen without defensiveness
• Healthy relationships require mutuality and shared power, not dominance and control
• Women need to recognize their needs matter and speaking up is an invitation to authentic relationship
Join us next week as we conclude our financial autonomy series with actionable steps that stay-at-home parents can take to protect themselves financially.
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Introduction to Uncovered Life Beyond
Speaker 1This is Rebecca and this is Naomi . We're 40-something moms and first cousins who know what it's like to veer off the path assigned to us .
Speaker 2We've juggled motherhood , marriage , college and career , as we questioned our faith traditions while exploring new identities and ways of seeing the world .
Speaker 1Without any maps for either of us to follow . We've had to figure things out as we go and appreciate that detours and dead ends are essential to the path Along the way , we've uncovered a few insights we want to share with fellow travelers .
Speaker 2We want to talk about the questions we didn't know who to ask and the options we didn't know we had .
Speaker 1So , whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking things up , we are here to cheer you on and assure you that the best is yet to come . Welcome to Uncovered Life Beyond . Hello everyone , Welcome back to Uncovered Life Beyond . This is Naomi and this is Rebecca . So today we're taking a break from our financial autonomy series because we decided we wanted to address something that's been in the news in deconstruction
The Tim Whitaker & Grace Report Situation
Speaker 1circles . Rebecca , what have you heard about the Grace Report , about the new evangelicals and its director or leader , Tim Whitaker Boy ?
Speaker 2you know , sometimes this stuff just sounds so familiar . It's like we've heard this story before . So what I'm hearing is Tim Whitaker . Several years ago was it like 2007 when he started this new organization ?
Speaker 1Well , it's much more recent than that , I think .
Speaker 2Is it more recent than ?
Speaker 1that yeah , he started deconstructing . He says in 2016, .
Speaker 2around the election Okay , so here's the thing we cannot let these guys who are so early in deconstruction start organizations .
Speaker 1Yeah , well , and he started around 2021 , I think , is when New Evangelicals got started and I think it , you know it was a social media presence and then in the next , you know , in the last few years , it's become an organization with a board . I think they have a six-figure budget . I know they have a six-figure budget yeah .
Speaker 1And so a lot of the original volunteers some of them have transitioned , like to contractors , Right . But you know it's made up , it's still very grassroots in that it's made up of folks who are very closely tied to the heart , you know , or the intent , right , the mission of the organization . It's new enough , it's new enough that it's still . Because Tim Whitaker has been at the center of it even though there's a board . He has very much been kind of the central figure representing it .
Speaker 2Well , and just because there's a board doesn't mean that he isn't in charge . I've been a part of a board where the administrator manipulated the board members and got everyone to just say yes , Right right .
Speaker 1Yeah , I agree , I agree , just because there's a board doesn't guarantee at all , yeah , authentic accountability . But I think what we're really here to talk about is that it's not just him , that it's a widespread pattern , like you mentioned earlier , where these so-called nice guys claim to be allies , feminists supporting women , but when push comes to shove , when they're in positions of power , when there's times of stress , they still default to patriarchal entitlement . And it's so normal that when it happens , I think we often too often just accept it as , oh , it's just his personality . But I think what the Grace Report does really well is uses his own words , and his own words . His own words in his testimony drip with patriarchal entitlement .
Speaker 1So what happened sometime in the last year or so ? A contractor with the organization , someone who had been involved for a long time and was involved in some of the projects they're workingur , and there was road rage and some really emotional dysregulation and that's kind of like the inciting incident . But what's interesting to me is all his expectations that others can't be late , but he could be late on things , all this expectation that everybody else's world is supposed to revolve around his when it comes to working on projects . That , to me is interesting that preceded that incident and then , after the incident , as she came to terms with it and wanted to address it with him , it was minimized and then she was marginalized within the organization and he refused to address it . That too , to me , is so interesting because , while it's not some egregious sex scandal like we've seen plenty of in churches , it's still patriarchal entitlement and it's still about power and control of men over women . And it's so familiar , too many of us brush it off . It's not a big deal .
Speaker 2Well , and I also think it's important that we talk about it , because there is a lot of this type of thing happening in the evangelical circles and those who consider themselves more progressive or in the deconstructing world want to hold themselves above this type of thing .
Speaker 2But I think you know , just this weekend someone talked
Deconstruction as an Ongoing Process
Speaker 2about my friend . Gerald actually talked about how deconstruction is more of an end process . It's an acknowledgement that your system of meaning , your system of understanding the world is changing . He used the phrase I'm acknowledging that my worldview is destabilized and when it becomes destabilized , it's uncomfortable , it's scary . It's that space where you don't know what to do because you have more questions than answers . And I think there's a lot of people , and especially men , who , because it's so uncomfortable , want to quickly stabilize , but then when they do that , they've never changed their internal way of seeing the world , of operating within the world , and I think it's important that we call it out wherever it's happening . It's not just the conservatives or just the evangelical world where this happens . It also happens in other places and regardless where it happens , it's important to call it out .
Speaker 1Absolutely . Oh , I've seen this kind of thing in academic , secular places all the time too , and it seems like what you're talking about there is like when there's an identity shift , like oh , I'm no longer evangelical , now I am this , and I slide right into the box and into a new box and don't examine those assumptions .
Speaker 2Yeah , and just change the wording or just change the words you use to articulate life , maybe , but there's no internal change . I remember seeing this happen with an acquaintance who kind of was an asshole Christian and then , boom , the same person was just an asshole atheist . Yeah , exactly Nothing really changed except some terminology , and I do think it's something that we are very aware of , and I think deconstruction is more of a ongoing process .
Speaker 1It's a way of life . It's not a destination .
Speaker 1Agreed , agreed to control , seeking to do the organizing , seeking to be the head of the thing , and yeah , we see this all the time . We could name names of folks who have made that shift , and Terry Real , a therapist who has written some books , like Fierce Intimacy is one does such a wonderful job talking about how traditional forms of masculinity and femininity impact our romantic relationships and it's relevant to other relationships as well . But he talks about how true intimacy requires mutuality , not dominance . And yet , when men have been socialized to see relationships as hierarchical , right , you're either in in control or you feel powerless . So they've got to be in control because , in their mind , if they're not , then they are powerless . And I guess maybe I don't know the question is do they think about it long enough to consider whether they're assuming everybody else in their orbit should be powerless ? Then , like , is that what they're saying ? You know what I mean , or is that the framework ?
Speaker 2So I think so much of what they are leaving is often built on this selfish narrative . I mean , think about the way many of us were raised to think about salvation and this personal relationship with God . It became this selfish thing that as long as God and I were tight , it didn't really matter what was happening with my other relationships , because , man , god and I were tight , that was your- Stake in the ground .
Speaker 2Yes , yeah , that was your anchor , that was the end , all be all and it was a very selfish . It became this very selfish thing because it was just about God and I , and if you're going to try and leave that but never acknowledge or recognize how much of it was built on selfish ideology and my guess is this might be even more problematic for men because they often are the ones who tend to benefit that it might be easier just to change and never really look at the selfish motives , the way the ego was involved . Plus , may I be snarky and talk about the new name or the name ?
Speaker 1the new evangelicals .
Speaker 2What is ?
Speaker 2there that they're trying to save . I mean , it reminds me a little bit of the old order and the new order Amish , like , really , and guess who are the most problematic . The new orders consider themselves far more saved . They're kind of much more spiritual , but they tend to be . I have much better friends within , or friendships within , the old orders than I do in the new orders , and there's a certain layer or level of humility that is found within the old orders that you tend not to see in the new orders . So just because I don't know , I'm a little snarky about the name , like I feel like that in itself is a red flag .
Speaker 1Yeah , fair Well , and I should say here too , like I have heard of the New Evangelicals , the name Tim Whitaker did not ring any bells for me when this report came out . The reason that I even looked at the report was because Tia Leavings had posted about it and said go read it . And when Tia Leavings says do something , you go do it Because she knows what she's talking about . And I was stunned . And to me , like the reason I say that is to say like this is not about oh , this is someone that I hate watch from afar . Let's put it that way . We all have those hate watches right on social media , but it's not the case at all . What has struck me about it is how utterly predictable , how utterly commonplace , all the patriarchal entitlement that came through in the report . That , to me , is what's interesting and
Patriarchal Entitlement in Progressive Spaces
Speaker 1how and I say this in the best possible way how boringly predictable it is . But there's a problem with this and that's , I think , what we want to call out . I mean , some of the things that were found in the Grace Report was that , even though he claimed to be sharing leadership , he was clearly controlling organizational power and I think for a lot of reasons , up to that point it had not made a major , it hadn't come to a head in the way it did , but those patterns were there . He gaslighted , emotionally manipulated colleagues when he was called on things and retaliated against the women who challenged him .
Speaker 1Since the report came out and in preparing for our conversation here today , I listened to an interview with him on another podcast and in that podcast he talked about , you know , the things that he is doing differently as a result of deconstruction , and one of those is parenting differently . And he said he talked about his willingness to apologize to his kids . When he messes up . He says all the right things , and yet on that podcast , in public , he's saying all the right things , and yet what the report found was , you know , instead of taking responsibility , he blamed the victims for his actions .
Speaker 1You were late . That's why I got upset and completely overlooking the fact that he had given her the material she needed to do that work late and that she had been up half the night working on this and and had been . I mean , it was because she was working so hard on the project that she didn't get that . She was running late that morning , the morning of the road rage incident . And then , when she does bring it up and mentions how it was triggering , the experience is triggering for her because of things she's experienced in the past . Instead of him expressing concern for the pain that caused her , he weaponized her trauma to discredit her concerns . And we see this happen all the time . If a man is traumatized , well then we give him a pass . If a woman's traumatized , well then she's crazy and we don't need to believe , we don't need to pay attention to her . And this happens all the time and we do it . We are conditioned , we are socialized to do it and we've got to become aware of it and we've got to stop it .
Speaker 2And I think this is such an important point and this is something that we can personally observe and take . We can take our clues about who we follow from watching this type of action . There's this person on social media who has built a platform on sexual purity , sexual honesty , and he built his platform off of his porn addiction and getting out of that .
Speaker 2But of course that leads into then , or his expertise now is also into how women's sexuality and male sexuality and all this other stuff of course , and he was promoting something that was really kind of yucky , and a bunch of women came on and they were like this is not good , this is bad , this is triggering , this is not okay , this is harmful . And he immediately shut those women down and he even said because of your past , your words don't matter , or what you're thinking , believing , seeing doesn't matter , because you're responding out of trauma by his very own words . He should not be talking about porn then . Oh my goodness . But what we do is with men , we take them and whatever they had in their past and we give their past reason for them to teach us .
Speaker 1Yeah , it validates them .
Speaker 2It validates them , and immediately , immediately . A woman has no power because of her past .
Speaker 1She's invalidated because of the past . Yeah .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1Which is experience ? Yeah , it's just wild .
Speaker 2Guys , this happens so consistently and I think the biggest way to bring change is to note it , to verbalize it , to acknowledge it and to see what you see . Otherwise , these leaders just keep going and they are built off of followers and if you just stop following them , it's like it makes a difference , and that's , I think , where we hold power , right , right .
Speaker 1And I'm so glad you brought that the point up about those narratives that validate or invalidate , because this is where we can see how this is not just women versus men . This is about a patriarchal system , because women and men both reinforce these narratives . We tend to unthinkingly reinforce these
The Fake Ally Playbook: Common Tactics
Speaker 1narratives . Yeah , naming it and being conscious of it and seeing what we see to really push back against it . To really push back against it .
Speaker 1So we've put together a list of tactics that we've observed from the fake ally playbook , and these are based on things from the report , but the reason we're mentioning them is because they resonate so wildly with our experiences of people who claim to be all progressive feminists in public , but then in private personal relationships they default to patriarchy . So tactic number one is expecting women to manage emotional and organizational labor without recognition , and the way this showed up in the New Evangelicals was how the contributions of women tended to be minimized , even women who were playing a critical role . While the organization took credit for their labor , their ideas . He repeatedly ignored strategic advice from female team leaders with nonprofit expertise and dismissing their input , but then giving them jobs that were , you know , tasks that were well beneath their skill level . He expected female colleagues to handle emotional and conflict resolution work , while he controlled the organization's public facing content . So , like you , deal with my outbursts and then I'll go be the public face and look good . Essentially is what we're talking about .
Speaker 2Isn't this oldest time ?
Speaker 1Right , right . And then when he was held to the things he claimed to believe right , when he was held to account to live by that which he professed , then he started withholding communication from that individual , reassigning tasks to menial work , kind of cutting her out of the larger , more significant projects . And while of course he says , oh , no , no , no , this is not about retaliation , it's hard to see it as anything else . And again and again , I mean , we look at churches , we look at the way workplaces , families , all these places run .
Speaker 1Women are expected to carry the emotional , strategic workload actually getting the things done , thinking ahead , thinking about who's going to need what next week , and yet at the same time not giving credit for keeping the wheels in motion . And their authority , their expertise is just disregarded . And in fact , did you hear about the Catholic Women's Strike ? No , there is a group of women within Catholic churches and I know that's a huge category right there . I haven't seen much more than their website and heard a little bit about it , but through the season of Lent this year they are withholding their labor from all these churches where they're preparing for Easter .
Speaker 1Here is this high point of the liturgical calendar , and they're saying you're disregarding our insight , our input , our labor . All right , you take it then ? Good .
Speaker 2I just love it .
Speaker 1I cannot . You know , I don't even have a sense of the scope . You know , maybe this is just a handful of people , but we need this throughout our society .
Speaker 2You know , I think sometimes we feel powerless and then forget that we actually do hold power . Yes , I think being really strategic within that is so important . It's both reclaiming your power . Sometimes it's creating boundaries , sometimes it's saying what did you mean by that , I don't understand and making them explain themselves . Sometimes it's going on strike . But I think reclaiming that power in ways that kind of showcase what females bring to the table is so valuable .
Speaker 1Right , it's like recognizing . Oh , this is the part where I am playing into this game into this process into the system .
Speaker 1I'm just going to step back Absolutely and let me say this is where religious communities shine in telling women that is of the devil . Well , guess why the devil ? Well , guess why , I mean , they benefit so much from women believing that's their responsibility , and it's such a mind you know what ? Yeah , it really is . So the second tactic we've identified is weaponized gaslighting . I guess this is kind of something we've been touching on throughout our conversation . Where have you seen this kind of thing , rebecca ?
Speaker 2Well , I think it would be fair to say . I think sometimes terms we use get overused . I think sometimes terms like toxic and narcissistic and even gaslighting get overused and even gaslighting get overused . But I do think it is real in the sense that I think oftentimes it's easy when women see things they are dismissed as overreacting , abusive behavior as the victim's trauma response . That guy was talking about who likes to teach about sexual purity ? But when women come on and say , no , what you're teaching is harmful , oh , now he's going to tell them that it is their trauma response . That's gaslighting .
Speaker 1I think in these situations of weaponized gaslighting that we're talking about , the issue gets focused on is this right , is this wrong , is this harmful ? Is this not what ? If we just shift it to a lens of care , like whether it's true or not someone was hurt , can we validate that pain instead of invalidating it ? Can we recognize that rather than making it about who is right ? That's such a shift , and I think the way patriarchal masculinity inculturates men not to care about that .
Speaker 2Well , patriarchy tells us that men care about the facts .
Speaker 1The important things , yeah .
Speaker 2So you have to have a 10-point plan explaining why what happened was painful and after you've been harmed , who has the emotional energy for that . So you learn to shut up . So you learn to shut up . But then sometimes someone actually does have the emotional energy and so it's carefully planned . I remember having so many I still have so many conversations that I plan and I think about what I'm going to say and I try to have key points and without any emotion . God forbid you bring any emotion to the conversation . That is not a safe and caring and equal relationship . It should be enough to say wait , that kind of hurts , wait that feels yucky , wait that's painful . That should be enough .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , but also don't you think that oftentimes invalidating your pain as a way of not addressing the issue ? Yes , but part of the problem is that a woman's expression of need is taken by so many men as an attack , as a full frontal assault , and it's what's read into that expression of need , it's what's read into the story they tell themselves when you say , wow , I'm really tired tonight , and they tell themselves , oh , she's telling me she doesn't want me to touch her tonight . That was not the point at all . It was about having a long , hard day .
Speaker 2Well , they say they like the facts . The fact is , you're tired .
Speaker 1That's it , that's it , that's it . But it's the story that they're telling themselves , and I think this is why , also , tactic number three retaliation for speaking out is so real . So when someone does make their case , when someone does speak out , when someone does say , hey , yeah , this really is an issue , that's when women get called crazy , that's when women get called problematic , that's when women get called Jezebel spirit . In the real conservative settings They'd be called Jezebel spirit , I guess . Oh , oh , is it that in progressive spaces , where this patriarchal dynamic persists , we're called triggered or traumatized ? That's how we're it's new language .
Speaker 2It's new language . It's the same technique . New language
Weaponizing Trauma & Gaslighting Women
Speaker 2yes .
Speaker 1And it's once again . We have a system where people are being punished for telling the truth , for saying what we see . We also have tactic number four evasion of accountability and resistance to structural change . And we've already mentioned how Tim Whitaker , in this situation , positioned himself as the final decision maker in the functioning of the organization , even though there was this public claim of having board oversight . In fact , when this concern was brought to light , and then he recommended mediation and he controlled the whole mediation process , he chose a mediator , he downplayed the relationship that he'd had with her , the professional relationship he'd had with her , and she was traumaformed therapist and this sounded good . So they had a meeting and , as it happened , this mediator's second interview on Tim's podcast dropped the same day as the mediation .
Speaker 1Of course , it did , and I think that was coincidental . But when they finished the session , the mediation session , the individual came out , and my sense is that she realized there was a much closer relationship here between the two of them and her spidey senses went up that she was not getting a fair hearing . Her concerns had been further undermined , and part of the whole agreement too , too , was that she was given a gag order . She wasn't allowed to talk to anyone about this issue , and even after all this happened , there was still not meaningful apology or tangible steps taken toward repair , toward repair , and it's like he was following the playbook for how to evade genuine accountability , how to neutralize challenges to his authority and to control the narrative . It's just so textbook .
Speaker 2It's so textbook . Rarely in religious circles have I seen mediations actually work . It is typically a way to minimize the situation . It is typically a way to reestablish power , and the mediator knows darn well that if they don't align with power , they'll never be asked to be a mediator again . And I think mediation is typically more about public image management than it is about any type of reconciliation .
Speaker 1I agree , and I just want to point out the rhetoric there , because you know , from the area of like family law , we know that you know , when you've got a really contentious divorce and you've got attorneys going at each other , it can be such a hot mess . And I think the hope of mediation is like hey , can we just be reasonable people and sit down and work this out ? And I think it's the pretense of egalitarianism , it's a pretense that everyone is on equal ground , and you know what you're saying . As you're saying that I'm going , you know why mediation isn't working in those situations Because you don't have people on equal ground and so they're using the tools of egalitarianism for these incredibly unequal situations .
Speaker 2And we've got to Well , and by reinforcing it they can stabilize their situation again . It doesn't matter what happened to the person with less power . It's about stabilizing their situation and making them feel safe again Reinforcing the status quo Exactly .
Speaker 1Can you say more about the public image management and how you see that playing out here ? I think that's so true and , again , so common .
Speaker 2I think many leaders spend a lot of time developing this public image while privately dodging accountability . A phrase I've often heard is it's lonely at the top , and this is why and I think this is why Poor , sad , rich man I know I know you burn every bridge to get there . Yeah , isn't that true ? When you can't be authentic , you don't have relationships , because no , one trusts you .
Speaker 1Snap , snap , snap , and then guess what ? We get a male loneliness epidemic .
Speaker 2Yep , and even now there's people on social media talking about this . Now there's people on social media talking about this and they came to find out that both Tim and his wife created burner accounts and are being horribly accusatory to the people who dare talk about it , and I mean , you guys can just search for it . It's there .
Speaker 1Yeah , and we'll put links to like the reckonings . Yeah , that's a good site . Yeah , and they can . Yeah , yeah , it's just a Google search away .
Speaker 2It's astounding to me how , instead of acknowledging dude , I got it wrong and I'm so sorry and it's bad and you know what I need to sit out . Instead of just simply acknowledging it , taking responsibility , they come back fighting .
Speaker 1Well , but let's also recognize how he has consistently rejected opportunity to do that . Again and again . She came to him privately , she went to the board , like for all that time she kept it within the organization , all that time he had an opportunity . And you know what ? Yesterday I , at my work , I saw a situation where someone who was in a lower position of power felt she'd been spoken to rudely by someone in authority and she called it out in a very matter-of-fact way and his reaction was I'm so sorry . I was frustrated and really stressed because he had things going on . He said I'm sorry that it hurt you . I don't remember what he said . What I remember is the tone of his voice and then when it came up again later he repeated himself . It was just like can we put this in every man's training manual ? Like I don't know , and you know what happened . It just the issue went away .
Speaker 2But also he has Because it was acknowledged .
Speaker 1It was acknowledged and he's known to be genuine . He's a genuine person and so that apology came off as genuine , because I believe it is , and the situation is gone . I mean it's good . How hard is that ? How hard is ?
Speaker 2that and I think it's interesting . And again , this is kind of a broad brush , but I think women instinctively are taught to pause , question ourselves . Yeah , taught to question ourselves , taught to apologize , taught to reconsider , and I think sometimes women have to learn to quit apologizing , whilst oftentimes it might be a skill that men need to learn .
Speaker 1Yes , I agree , and I think part of the problem is when they see every relationship through the lens of either one up , one down , and if an apology means I'm automatically one down and powerless , then their fight or flight kicks in and they will do anything to avoid that accountability . And this is a thing that I talk about with my son whenever I have , whenever the opportunity comes up , is to say like , oh yeah , everybody makes mistakes , everybody messes up . The important thing is we take accountability for it and then we move on . Not a big deal , and I right and , and I think seeing shift , making that shift um brings a lot of freedom and it allows people to connect .
Speaker 2Well , that's where authenticity is birthed , right ? Right , it's a level playing field . You're right , I did mess up . Yeah , you're right , I did bring pain . Yeah , whether it was my intention or not , it really doesn't matter , right ?
Speaker 1Because usually that's not what our I mean . There are times when intention is relevant , but there's lots of times when that's not the point , especially in personal relationships . We just want the person who's supposed to love us and care about us to see how we're impacted by something . So we see these patterns again and again and again . We also see nice guys who know how to talk the talk critiquing patriarchy as it shows up in these very conservative , conventional , traditional spaces like conservative churches . Why do they keep showing up this way when they are then in progressive spaces , supposedly feminists , and yet why do they keep defaulting to these patriarchal norms ?
Speaker 2do they keep defaulting to these patriarchal norms ? Something that I'm realizing is a lot of the harm in patriarchy is the imbalance of the emotional labor
Moving Beyond Patriarchy in Relationships
Speaker 2women carry as compared to men , and even purity culture is in there . And something I've started doing and something I've started doing and it's fascinating is asking men who are talking the talk . So tell me , how has purity culture harmed you ? So I'd love to hear how has patriarchy harmed you ? I'm finding often and not always , but often it is the women who are doing the emotional work , even in deconstruction . Oftentimes it's the women that are talking about how patriarchy harms both men and women , and I think we need to be careful about doing that work for them , and I think we need to be more proactive about asking those questions . Be more proactive about asking those questions Because if a leader , if someone , cannot tell you how patriarchy has harmed them personally , how purity culture has harmed them personally , they haven't deconstructed .
Speaker 1Right , yeah , when someone has grown up their whole life being told that their perspective is authoritative , right , and also the other half of the population is also told that their perspective is authoritative , right . Women are enculturated to socialize to treat men's perspectives as more true than their own . These nice guys don't have to demand that women defer to them , right , because women have been socialized to do that automatically , right , and so they can . It's easy , it costs nothing to be a nice guy when everybody is already deferring to you and since they've always identified , and everybody around them has identified them as the good guy , they have no motivation to question that identity .
Speaker 1And so many of us believe we're in a meritocracy and we just get to where we are because of how we've worked or what we've earned . And so here they are in this privileged status where their view is seen as authoritative . And their view is seen as authoritative just because of their genitalia . And then their privileged status is something they think they've earned , not because they have the right genitalia , but because they've earned it by the superior work ethic and their high moral character . You've earned it and you don't realize . No , actually it's your preferred status that has put you in that place they can ignore the way their power is dependent on the oppression of others . It's so convenient to ignore it . And yeah , I love that point you make , because deconstruction isn't just about changing beliefs or changing identities . It's about unlearning the entitlement that made those beliefs so harmful in the first place and owning the role we played in that system .
Speaker 2And it's a willingness to be uncomfortable , it's a willingness to be unstabilized , and it's the art of humility and even taking ownership for the harm done humility and even taking ownership for the harm done Right .
Speaker 1And again , this is where there's a common misconception that by asking men to take accountability for the way that they have been socialized , to hold onto this entitlement is seen as somehow blaming them for all the problems of the world . And we're here to say no , this is a system . This is not men versus women , this is a system . We're saying the system's hurting you guys too , and we're inviting you to take an honest look at the personal costs to you and the people around you of basing your self-worth on sitting at the top of the social heap . And again , as Terry Real points out , many men are feeling torn between these two versions of masculinity , where we have this traditional patriarchal model which values dominance and control , cuts men off from their full range of emotions , as Bell Hooks mentions in her famous quote . And then , at the same time , there's also this more modern relational model which values partnership , emotional intelligence , egalitarian relationships , and you got to have this for genuine human connection . You got to have this for the authenticity , for the safety that's required for authenticity , to have that connection .
Speaker 1And we have men who are so lonely and you know what . So many women too , especially women who are partnered , are longing for this kind of connection . And yet as long as men cling to the entitlement of that traditional patriarchal model , they're cutting off themselves from relationships , and women are increasingly finding that they're even more lonely in a relationship than out of it . This is why 70% of divorces are initiated by women . And unlearning dominance unlearning to be at the top of the social heap requires active work . It means recognizing that relationships are not about winning or being controlled . They are about mutuality and shared power . And we are inviting men to open their eyes to the ways being top dog has cost them meaningful emotional connection to the people closest to them . So , ultimately , this is a hopeful message . It doesn't have to be this way . It doesn't have to be this way .
Speaker 2I think it's important to point out to the women who are listening . I think sometimes this is difficult because somehow often we're given the message that if we just explain it correctly , we can bring change . If we just pray correctly , god can work . We want to validate and empower the good we see in people and to a degree , I still sort of believe in all of that .
Speaker 2However , we cannot do the work for other people and it's not my job to rehabilitate anybody Not my job . I can't continue to do the work that other people need to do internally and in many ways I think this is why couple therapy is not effective , because oftentimes that therapy doesn't happen until the woman feels she's out of options . Happen until the woman feels she's out of options and she has done work and then all of a sudden , okay , great , let's go to couples therapy and her work just continues . She's still trying to articulate why things are problematic . She is still doing the emotional work . Oftentimes at least one partner hasn't done their internal work yet and then in situations like that , couples therapy works like mediation .
Speaker 1Yes , because the mediator will come in and will say okay , we're going to treat everybody like equals , completely ignoring the patriarchal power relationships there . And by ignoring those tendencies , those patterns of behavior , they're just reinforcing it , and this is one of the reasons I'm such a fan of Terry Real .
Speaker 2A recent fan His name keeps coming up .
Speaker 1His name keeps coming up because he brings that reality , that part of our upbringing , into his couples sessions and into his material , the work he does . He has a bunch of online courses that I've been eyeing , but again , this is not to say men are bad .
Speaker 1No , no , this is not to say let me say too , that 70% of women who are filing for divorce are doing it after years of doing everything they can to avoid it . The narrative out there that everybody's getting a divorce because they're just giving up is so much BS . The reality is , divorce sucks . Even when it's a good thing , even in the best , even when it's necessary Divorce , the process of divorce sucks , and divorce is the life raft when the ocean liner is going down . It's the point where you realize liner is going down . It's the point where you realize I've got to get out of here , or my kids , my family , myself , like we are toast . That's when people file for divorce .
Speaker 1I firmly believe the vast , vast majority of the 70% of women , divorce is the last thing they want . It's just how they can survive . So what are we looking for , then ? If we want to spot performative allyship or to tell the difference between someone who is claiming to be a feminist or actually a feminist , a real ally , if the fake ones can talk the talk and I think about someone that a friend of mine used to date , who could talk all the feminist theory and just talk like crazy , and yet whenever he'd come over and now , he never offered to help with the dishes . She'd make dinner , and he'd never help to offer the dishes .
Speaker 1So I think that is it , and I should say , too , that I've also dated men who didn't hesitate to wash the dishes , and these were guys . I'm thinking of one in particular who had never got , who hadn't gotten within a hundred yards of feminist theory , and yet he never hesitated . After a meal he got up and washed the dishes , and more than one man Like . There's not just one guy out there . I have a friend who's married to a feminist man . He also washes the dishes . She says she hasn't washed a dish her whole life , her whole married life . Anyway , it's not just about washing dishes , though , either .
Speaker 2But I think it's the practice of humility . I think it's the practice of humility , I think it's the practice of listening .
Speaker 1Mutuality it's the practice .
Speaker 2Yes , mutuality . It's understanding that not all the dishes , not all the laundry is her responsibility . It's understanding that I can see things that need to be done . I don't need a list . Yeah , it's about taking accountability . It's about sharing power , not just space , and it certainly isn't about it is not about supporting feminism only when it's convenient or beneficial , and I think another one in there is listening without getting defensive .
Speaker 1I remember and this is from my dating days , talking with someone once just making some kind of . It was a simple request , it wasn't a big deal , but what rocked me was his reaction . It was like , oh okay , and that was it . There was no pushback , there was no undermining , there was no invalidating . And I was like was no pushback , there was no undermining , there was no invalidating .
Speaker 2And I was like whoa , breath of fresh air . Breath of fresh air . You didn't have to explain , you didn't have to beg , you didn't have to have a 10-point list explaining .
Speaker 1No , yeah , wow , wow . I think another part that we as women can play in this is just recognizing that our needs matter and that when we speak up for them , we are giving men an opportunity to enter into authentic relationships , to enter into true
Final Thoughts and Next Episode Preview
Speaker 1intimacy , true connection . And , rather than seeing it as something that is selfish or immature or self-centered , rather than thinking we need to sacrifice ourselves , we need to light ourselves on fire to keep others from getting a chill , we need to see speaking up on behalf of our needs as an invitation to authentic and meaningful relationships . When we think about it that way , it can maybe help take the sting or the kind of internalized resistance to speaking up again , to speaking up for ourselves .
Speaker 1So in our financial autonomy series , we've been talking about how we can secure power , real power , in our lives , right ? So it's not just talk , not just unlearning toxic beliefs , but also making it real . And these relationships are another way to make that real in our lives . And next week we're going to go back to that and close out that series with actionable steps that stay-at-home parents can take right now to protect themselves in case of a future crisis and we never know what the future will hold , but we do know that many stay-at-home parents are in a very vulnerable place financially , and , while we are not financial experts , we can consult them , and we've been there to a greater or lesser extent and we want to talk about some of the ways that stay-at-home parents can have the financial autonomy that they deserve , because independence isn't just about what we believe . It's about how we prepare and how we set our future selves up with options . So we'll see you then .
Speaker 2Thank you for spending time with us today . The resources and materials we've mentioned are linked in the show notes and on Facebook at Uncovered Life Beyond .
Speaker 1What are your thoughts about college and recovery from high demand religion ? We know you have your own questions and experiences and we want to talk about the topics that matter to you . Share them with us at uncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom . That's uncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom .
Speaker 2If you enjoyed today's show and found value in it , please rate and review it on your favorite podcast app . This helps others find the show While you're there . Subscribe to our podcast so you never miss an episode .
Speaker 1Until next time stay brave , stay bold , stay awkward .
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