Uncovered: Life Beyond
Join the conversations of Rebecca and Naomi, two ex-Amish Mennonite women who jumped the proverbial fence in their younger years and later experienced college as first-gen, non-traditional students. They discuss pursuing formal education while raising a family, navigating the hidden curriculum of academia, and other dimensions of reimagining a life beyond high-demand religion. Send your questions to uncoveredlifebeyond@gmail.com.
Uncovered: Life Beyond
53. Facing Down a Stonewall: Standing up for Financial Fairness
Financial autonomy is crucial to everyone's wellbeing, but what happens when one partner refuses to engage in conversations about money? We explore the dynamics of financial stonewalling and share practical strategies for taking ownership of your adult responsibilities.
• Financial issues can become control mechanisms when one partner refuses to engage in good faith
• Both men and women have been socialized to question women's financial abilities and understanding
• Red flags include: lack of access to accounts, asking for money like an allowance, monitored spending, refusal to share information
• Religious contexts often use spiritual language to validate financial dependence and lack of autonomy
• Taking steps toward financial independence isn't being sneaky—it's being smart
• Running your credit report helps identify accounts in your name you may not be aware of
• Opening your own bank account provides security and independence
• Understanding your own values helps guide decision-making when faced with resistance
• Having financial options doesn't mean planning to leave—it means staying by choice, not necessity
• A financially independent woman isn't a threat—she's simply someone who refuses to be stuck
Join us next time to discuss practical ways a stay-at-home parent can build financial autonomy--beyond the obvious ways like winning the lottery!
Resources We Mentioned in the Show (or should have)
What is Financial Abuse? (The Hotline)
Learn about your credit report and how to get a copy (USAGov)
Your Money Matters: A Guide to Financial Independence for Women
Financial Freedom: Women, Money, and Domestic Abuse
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This is Rebecca and this is Naomi. We're 40-something moms and first cousins who know what it's like to veer off the path assigned to us.
Speaker 2:We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college and career, as we questioned our faith traditions while exploring new identities and ways of seeing the world.
Speaker 1:Without any maps for either of us to follow. We've had to figure things out as we go and appreciate that detours and dead ends are essential to the path Along the way, we've uncovered a few insights we want to share with fellow travelers.
Speaker 2:We want to talk about the questions we didn't know who to ask and the options we didn't know we had.
Speaker 1:So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking things up, we are here to cheer you on and assure you that the best is yet to come. Welcome to Uncovered Life Beyond. Hello everyone, Welcome back to Uncovered Life Beyond. This is Naomi and this is Rebecca. So the last few episodes we've been talking about financial literacy, financial autonomy and some of the barriers to that. In our last episode, we talked about the breadwinner versus the stay-at-home parent in terms of who's supporting whom, because that's something that is we're questioning. We're calling into question the way that some of those conversations are framed, but it seemed important that we also talk about what happens when, or how do we handle it when we are getting stonewalled, when we are in a situation where we're wanting to be a team and we're wanting to achieve financial equity, financial autonomy, but we are dealing with someone who's not on the same page or is certainly not as motivated as we are. What do we do then?
Speaker 2:I think in any conversation that's tough, whether it's finances, whether it is about faith, whether it is about where you want to go out to eat.
Speaker 1:Go out for a date. That's what I was going to say too.
Speaker 2:Like I think, in any I think in any situation where there's that stonewall effect going on. That's just really difficult. And something I'm learning is, if someone isn't engaging in good faith, oftentimes I felt like it was my responsibility to somehow communicate more clearly. Or, you know, I would think, okay, well, let's try it from this angle or let's try this, and sometimes it's not my problem to fix.
Speaker 1:Sometimes the strategy doesn't make a difference, right, right. Yeah, I'm not sure if I mentioned last week, but I've been listening to Terry Real's work and he is a couples therapist that I don't know where he's been hiding all this time, but I really appreciate the way he addresses head on the ways that men and women are often socialized to behave and how that brings a particular power dynamic into relationships. And he addresses that head on. And he talks about how both men and women have been socialized to question and second guess anything a woman says. And I think we've both seen examples where men are conditioned to just not hear women.
Speaker 1:And we're talking good men, but good guys, and it doesn't become a personal character flaw until someone is refusing to acknowledge it and address it. But it is really up until that point. It's the way society has conditioned us to interact.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm excited to read listen to Terry Ruehl's work, just from things you've said. So thank you for introducing us to this. I do think it's really important and I've been reminding myself this so many times in conversations, and particularly about this male versus female type thing. I try so hard to approach it from the assumption that both parties are truly trying to figure it out. We've just been given a lot of shitty advice. I mean, when I think about some of the marriage books that I was eating, consuming when we first got married, I'm like holy cow, how did we even survive? There is some shitty advice out there that's packaged as if it is the solution to all of our problems. As always, I think the person who's most uncomfortable in the relationship is going to be the first one to start pulling at the threads, and I guess I would just like to take the opportunity to suggest if your partner is pulling at threads and it makes you feel uncomfortable, just lean into that discomfort, sometimes comfort isn't.
Speaker 1:Are you saying that sometimes comfort is more about familiarity than help?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and sometimes comfort isn't good, I mean sometimes comfort is destructive.
Speaker 1:Sometimes comfort for one person is pain or even harm for another person.
Speaker 2:Right and sometimes even the comfort for the person who's benefiting from it is damaging. Poking at what feels like your frame of comfort and what you thought you were hanging on to just lean into it.
Speaker 1:And if someone else is telling you that they're not comfortable about something, I think we really need to pay attention Right, and especially when that's someone who has less power in a situation Exactly, and I think that wherever we stand on that, in that power dynamic, I think we owe it to ourselves to approach these conversations with assuming the best for everyone. But when someone shows us that they aren't interested in understanding us, they aren't interested in financial autonomy for you, that's important information to recognize as well, and that's really the situation we want to talk about today. And so I think it's the kind of thing where, on one hand, arguments about money and marriage very normal or in partnerships, but we're not talking about kind of garden variety disagreements. We're talking about when someone is stonewalling and refusing to have a conversation.
Speaker 2:Someone is stonewalling and refusing to have a conversation, refusing to address your concerns in a way that makes you feel heard, right, and the thing is it's so embedded in our DNA. Like men and you referenced this earlier men are conditioned not to hear women, and for Pete's sake, I mean we have all. If we grew up in the conservative Anabaptist world, we know what men's meetings are, where they talk probably about what kind of covering the women should be wearing or not wearing. Why is it that men are discussing issues that specifically affect women?
Speaker 1:Right right.
Speaker 2:So we have systems here that we're pushing against Right Structures.
Speaker 1:Right. One example, a very traditional example, of this kind of scenario is when the wife is staying home with children, and this is something that she and her husband both agree on, and because then the husband's the breadwinner, it can often be the case that he takes full control of the finances. Now, obviously, this is not always the case, but we're talking about situations where it is and where maybe she'll receive a weekly allowance for groceries, household needs, but you know, it's always a stretch, and if she, whenever she talks about the needs that go beyond that, he's getting frustrated and saying things like I work hard for this money, you should be able to manage better. And when she wants to open a joint account, he refuses, telling her oh, she just doesn't understand finances, he'll handle everything. And then she might later find that he's been hiding things from her, and that can be a whole or anything from bills that haven't been paid to gambling debts to credit card accounts in her name.
Speaker 1:It can be a whole range of things. Or you know that he is spending money on himself while he's making her feel guilty for needing basic necessities. And of course, then when this kind of situation happens in a religious setting, in a really conservative, religious, setting, high demand. Usually there will be a whole cloak of spirituality that will be layered over it that will validate her dependence, validate her lack of financial autonomy and will kind of make her the villain for questioning the status quo. Have you seen? Are you familiar with that kind of thing?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, right, because then it becomes not just a conversation about you and your husband's relationship, but it becomes this thing about needing to trust your husband's wisdom or Trust God to speak through your husband. Yes, and you pray about your concerns. You don't, you know, speak directly to your husband about those concerns. You certainly don't nag directly to your husband about those concerns. You certainly don't nag. We need to be a Proverbs 31 woman and be more resourceful and be more content. So, yeah, there's this whole other element to it that can almost go from financial abuse, neglect to spiritual abuse.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah and gaslighting Right, and along with what you're talking about there, there's often this idea that men are better at handling money.
Speaker 1:Women don't understand, and I think it's really easy for women to feel dismissed or feel or to be intimidated when, say, the controlling partner pulls out all the big words and you know, and intimidates them intentionally, intimidates them by their lack of financial literacy. And I think we're here to say that if you can ask the question, you can understand the answer and, as a legally responsible adult, you will be held accountable for what your partner does legally. As a legally responsible adult, you will be held accountable for what your partner does legally, and so it's only prudent for an adult to know, for us as adults to know what we could be held liable for and what risks are being taken in our name. Like that is not. That's basic responsibility, taking basic responsibility for ourselves, and the very fact that someone is not taking your question seriously should be cause for concern. We want you to know that if you're not getting answers to your questions, please keep asking. They're more important than ever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and I think it is so important that we educate ourselves and we educate our kids. Huge advocate of getting your kids involved in their own finances and helping them understand the terminology and the processes as well, because I don't want to raise children who assume that the male is better with finances than the female or that the female can't understand certain terminology. And so, as much as possible, I think it is so important to introduce our kids to that as well and certainly certainly educate ourselves. So when does the provider quote become the financial gatekeeper? How do we know if the financial setup is unfair?
Speaker 1:I think this is a really good question. It's important to define what we're talking about. Thehotlineorg is a website for folks dealing with domestic violence, domestic abuse of many different kinds, and they list some examples, but essentially it is about financial abuse is rooted in the desire of one partner to have power and control over the other, and who is trying to limit the options of their partner through whether it's their job or some other kind of income stream or their access to shared family finances. I think some red flags that we can think about are things like if one partner doesn't have access to financial accounts, or if they have to ask for money like a child asking for an allowance, and they feel like a child asking for an allowance, and they feel like a child asking for an allowance.
Speaker 1:When your spending is monitored or restricted without discussion, when it's not like a mutual discussion, when a partner refuses to share financial information, just when you have that feeling of anxiety or powerlessness about money decisions and you feel like you're just not part of the conversation. All those are red flags that you are not experiencing financial autonomy and that there's a problem that needs to be addressed. Our message for anyone who is experiencing this is to say you're not alone, you have options. Many of us are socialized to try to fix a situation like this by trying to get the other person to change, but by being nicer to them or being more accommodating or, as you were saying earlier, Rebecca, phrasing it a different way, coming at it from a different approach. But the idea that we can change someone else who is not operating in good faith is an approach that typically only works in sermon illustrations. In real life, that doesn't usually work Right.
Speaker 2:Right, and this is, I think, where this whole notion of boundaries kind of gets fascinating, because we often think about boundaries being a thing of I. Don't allow you to do that, and no. Boundaries are all about what I accept or how I'm going to engage or how I'm going to show up, and sometimes the more productive approach is just that to change how I engage with the situation.
Speaker 1:I think that point about boundaries being a matter of controlling how I'm showing up in a situation is so powerful when our guiding light in those boundaries is what our personal values are, rather than trying to get somebody else to change. That's when so many new options can open up, and I would just encourage anyone in this situation who is feeling trapped or who is feeling recognizing these red flags in their situation. Before you rush in demanding a change, I would encourage you to take some time to think, reflect, journal, pray if that's helpful for you, whatever that can help you feel more settled, more like yourself, and to do some deep soul searching about what will life likely look like in, say, 5, 10, 15 years if you go along with the status quo, and is that what you want for yourself and your loved ones, your children? What would you want life to look like in five, 10, 15 years? What steps could get you started on that path? And what this can do is help clarify if this situation with the red flags that you're in now, where is that taking you likely and is that where you want to go?
Speaker 1:And one other thing that can be part of an exercise like this is to identify the values that are guiding you in this, the ones that are most important, and I'll link to, we'll link to a values chart in the show notes.
Speaker 1:But and all these values are good and if you're like me, you're going to feel a compulsion to like, check all of them, but just just check three or five.
Speaker 1:You know three to five that are most relevant in as it relates to your financial, your financial future, and use that as your center for whatever it is that you do next, because you might have to make some changes. If you've been pretty hands-off, this might this values clarification might motivate you to step up, to speak up, and it can feel awkward and unfamiliar at first when you are doing that for the first time, and that's okay. It doesn't mean you're doing it wrong. It means you're learning and growing and being clear about what matters to you. Being clear about your values can help power your confidence when you're swimming upstream in a situation like this. So, rebecca, let's say someone is in a situation, they're recognizing these red flags, they've done some deep soul searching and I have a clearer sense of what really, really deep down, matters to them and how they want their life to look in 5, 10, 15 years. What are some practical steps someone might want to explore as they are seeking financial autonomy?
Speaker 2:I think it's important to as much as you can to get the full picture and gathering information that you can, whether it's bank statements, tax returns, that type of thing. But if your hands are tied and you can't do that, everyone can run their own credit report, and that is a really important place, I think, to start just to find out what accounts are opened in your name and if there are accounts that are opened that you're not aware of. And I think that's a very important place to start, and there will be a link for that in the show notes too.
Speaker 1:And this is something that's probably best done quietly when you're dealing with a situation that's full of red flags. Right, right, we'll talk about the guilt that, the feelings of guilt that can come up about being, quote unquote, secretive about this. We'll talk about that in a minute, right?
Speaker 2:I am also a huge advocate that women should have their own accounts Like. I am absolutely convinced of this, and it's a small way to start building your financial independence. I recently heard about a banker who had Amish women even coming in and asking to secretly open up account and asking how they can do it to be safe from their spouse finding out, and I know that the first thing that comes to my mind even as I say this is so we are upset that our spouse has accounts that we don't know about. So what do we do? Turn around and do the exact same thing, and you know that that can feel wrong. Trust me on this one it's not the same thing. This is about your safety. This is about your independence, and don't let that get in your way. Don't let that get in your way.
Speaker 1:And once you have that personal bank account, then when someone gives you a birthday gift or you have some windfall that comes in unexpected, you've got a place to put it and you've got a secure place to put it.
Speaker 2:Right, and I think we women are so resourceful. You can figure out ways to have a side hustle, sell things on marketplace, what be it? You can come up with ways, and I think it's important to pursue those options. And then, most of all, find your support systems. Talk to trusted friends and family and pay attention when you're having those conversations. It is your body's job to keep you safe, so pay attention to what signals you're receiving.
Speaker 1:Right, because what can be so tricky in some of these situations is that family members that you would hope would be supportive of someone in a situation like this, for whatever reason, might not be supportive and they might end up colluding with the other partner out of a false sense of loyalty. So I think, being really clear about who you can trust and testing it in small ways before you trust them with big information and I think one way, one data point, one detail to pay attention to is do they believe you? Like, if you say something that indicates there's some tension or that there's some distress in your home or in your partnership, and they seem to doubt your word, seem to doubt your experience, that's probably not going to be a trusted person. But keep talking until you find those trusted people, and I think often in situations like this, our support will come from places where we don't expect it. So keep looking for them until you find them.
Speaker 1:And there are also free financial counseling and legal advice services out there. I think it's easy to see those kinds of free financial counseling or legal advice services as something that's for other people out there, but it's for everyone and it's important to recognize that just because you are consulting and you're getting information does not mean you're getting ready to go blow everything up or you know file for divorce or whatever it is that someone might fear that you're going to, you know, but just gathering information. Just see it as gathering information that is powerful and you might decide you're not going to change anything major, but getting the information is going to allow you to make an informed decision.
Speaker 2:The other thing with gathering information is it gives you confidence and it gives you a sense of understanding of where you're at. And sometimes just that sense of confidence and understanding forces your partner to engage. And while that isn't necessarily the best way to get there, maybe this is your way to get there. So gather that information and feel confident about what you're learning. Even if it's scary, you can still have confidence because at least you know what you're dealing with. And if it's scary, you can still have confidence because at least you know what you're dealing with and it's not this mystery.
Speaker 1:Right right and ask questions until you do Right Understand, yeah, and this is not unreasonable. This is what a normal functioning adult would do and, I think, along the way, giving grace to yourself when you do make mistakes. You know, when you feel embarrassment for asking the dumb questions. First of all, they're not dumb, but even if you do make financial decisions, you'll regret learning from them moving on.
Speaker 1:That is not God's judgment on you. That is not an invalidation of your desire for financial autonomy. This is life. This is life, and an honest mistake is nothing that someone needs to feel shame over, and I think that fear of being shamed is something that's often held over our heads and often used to control us, because the idea is like if we don't do something wrong, then we are worthy of dignity, if we do all the right things, then we're worthy of, we earn dignity. And I think we can have so much confidence in realizing no, no, everybody deserves to be treated with dignity and respect, regardless of what mistakes they might make, regardless of what information they might not have, regardless of whether or not your venture is successful. You are not obligated to stay in a situation where your dignity and your safety is not respected and you don't need to earn that. That is a starting point and you're not being unreasonable for expecting that.
Speaker 2:Somewhere I read that some of us come to the table feeling like we aren't wanted, so we come up with ways to be needed, and no one should have to be in a relationship simply because you're needed. You should be wanted there. That is part of what a relationship looks like, what a healthy relationship looks like. That made me pause and just think about the way I show up and your dignity matters, your personhood matters and again, I think sometimes those observations are just data points, data collection, and you deserve to be wanted in the relationship and in these high conflict scenarios. I think it's so important also that your priority should be to stay in that upstairs brain, rather than automatically succumbing to your downstairs brain, and remember to breathe, take a breath, stay hydrated, refuse to make a decision that someone else is forcing on you.
Speaker 1:Follow your gut, know what you know see what you see, and I think it can be hard to know how to follow our gut when it's not something we've been practicing a lot.
Speaker 1:But that's where being clear about what matters to us, being clear about our values, having gathered that information, is what can power us through that.
Speaker 1:And I think, recognizing that when the pressure is being put on us, it's so easy to go into fight or flight, it's so easy to go into fight or flight, it's so easy to shut down or you know, whatever our trauma response is to a high conflict situation. But I think the more high conflict it is, the more tense it is, the less interested the other person is in working with us and meeting us halfway, the more we need to have those ways of calming ourselves and of staying extremely clear about what it is we want out of a situation and recognizing what the situation is that we're dealing with. So what if we've done all this, taken all these steps and in the best case scenario, a partner might say oh, I see they're serious about this. Okay, I'm willing to talk. But what if that doesn't happen? What if the partner still won't engage? What are some options that might be recommended and I might have some hot takes on this, then what?
Speaker 2:did and I might have some hot takes on this then what you know, I think it's so important for each person in this situation to figure out for themselves what they want to do. As much as I'm not an advocate for you have to stay, neither am I an advocate for you have to go, you have to stay. Neither am I an advocate for you have to go. I think at this point, when you know and see the picture or the situation you're in, that alone can give you a place to start. You might want to sit on it for a year and just observe, observe.
Speaker 2:I know relationships that have kind of reached that segue point where she kind of had to figure out independently how to survive. He kept doing his thing. She was aware enough to ensure that he wasn't like opening up accounts in her name anymore. Like that at least quit. And I think that is bottom line. Like I just don't think anyone has any business opening accounts in a spouse's name unknowingly. But don't let other people tell you what you need to do. You can gather advice, but you're not looking to someone else to make a decision for you. Educate yourself, follow your gut. It's okay to sit and listen and watch and observe. It's okay to do that, but I think each of us deserves to make our own decisions within that.
Speaker 1:But it's not necessarily your job to fix the partner Right, and I think this is a point where a lot of advice would be oh, have you gone to counseling, have you gone to mediation? But the more time goes on, the more I look askance at a lot of couples counseling when you don't have both people operating in good faith and that can be even more damaging. So if someone is refusing to engage, it might be past the point that a counselor or mediator can do much good and that's for each individual to decide, and maybe it would still be useful just to hear an outside perspective. But I don't want to suggest that that's like some kind of panacea, I just want to throw that out there.
Speaker 2:Oh, I think that that's so important because so often we have situations where women have been in counseling for years and then all of a sudden, they reach their limit and it's like, okay, and then guess what's next on the plate? Oh, let's do marriage counseling. When one partner has been in counseling for years and the answer is now we're ready for marriage counseling, I think that's just offensive. Both parties need to do their own work. Both parties need to do their own work. Both parties need to gain their own awareness. And if your spouse, your partner, has not been in therapy and you've been in therapy, going into couples therapy, I just think is damning. Oftentimes the counselor will try and not take sides. Oftentimes the counselor will try and not take sides.
Speaker 1:And often even professionals, will defer to the most toxic person in the room. And then there's this tension where the therapist is trying to keep the most toxic person in the room engaged, and so they do that by deferring to them. And so, even though one person has been bending over backwards, to make the relationship work to treat everybody equally, now we have to talk about how everybody's equally at fault, equally at fault, equally at fault. It's just, it's so, it's ridiculous, and I just would not wish that on anyone. So can we talk about some of those fears, some of those guilt trips that are likely going to be running teaching that goes against our move toward financial autonomy.
Speaker 1:When all our programming is based on those voices, it can be really hard to do something different. So let's hit some of those head on and let's deconstruct those guilt trips. So I think we agree that being prepared isn't being sneaky, it's smart. Once we have acknowledged we're in a situation with lots of these red flags, we realize we do not have financial autonomy and we radically accept that and say this is the situation that I'm in. Acting on it from that perspective, then, is not being sneaky, it's just being smart. And having an emergency fund doesn't mean that we're planning to crash our car. Keeping a first aid kit doesn't mean we're planning to break a leg. Squirreling away a little money doesn't mean you're planning to run away and live off the grid or whatever. It just means life happens and you deserve options. Having some cash tucked away can give you those options.
Speaker 2:Right and I think so often. At least there's some of us who've been taught that. You know you have to be honest, you cannot lie, you have to be truthful, and I remember, at certain points in different relationships, realizing that I was the only one showing up, being fully honest, and that it was used against you. And at some level you need to meet the energy that's coming your way and showing up and trusting relationships, issues that have harmed you over and over again. Showing up and trusting those same situations is not going to serve you, it's not going to serve your family, it's not going to serve your kids. So look at ways that you can show up differently and maybe even more independently, and it's always interesting to me how you know a good wife. A submissive wife is expected to show up in ways that the husbands never do. I think it's okay to think about the rules and the scripts that have been given to females as opposed to males, and at some point, if it's not good for the goose, it's not good for the gander either.
Speaker 1:After all, marriage should be a partnership, not a hostage situation, and I think when we look at the reality of who is expected to be loyal to whom so often, it starts to look a whole lot more like a hostage situation rather than a partnership. What about trust? What about someone who feels guilty because having private money, feels like they're breaking trust? What do you say to someone like that?
Speaker 2:I think sometimes we're expected to trust situations that aren't trustworthy. We're expected to trust leaders that aren't trustworthy, and I think we so desperately need to learn to trust ourselves first of all. We so desperately need to learn to trust ourselves first of all. And if you find yourself in a relationship or in a situation where trust isn't coming or expected to flow both ways, you cannot. Trust can't exist there. Trust can't be there. Trust is not a one-way street.
Speaker 1:Not in a marriage or in a partnership. Trust is not a one-way street, not in a marriage or in a partnership. Well, and isn't it a bigger betrayal for one spouse to keep the other one financially powerless? I mean, if one partner is not sharing financial access with the other one, they're the ones being secretive. And if you were in an equal partnership would this even be an issue. And I think those kinds of questions can kind of bring to light the one-way trust that you're talking about there.
Speaker 1:And if someone feels like they have to hide money to have financial freedom, that's right. There is a sign that something is off. That goes much deeper than how they're addressing the situation. So I think another concern might be that this is someone who is planning an escape, and that can be seen as an act of disloyalty. But I think of Tia Leving's story and the many women who have been in situations like that.
Speaker 1:The thing is, you're not, it's not about planning to leave. I think 99% of the women in those situations want the situation to resolve. They want to stay. They leave when it becomes about survival and so having financial autonomy. It doesn't mean you're preparing for divorce. It means you're staying even though you could leave. But also it means that in an emergency, you're prepared, you are giving yourself power to make choices, not just for yourself, but if you have children that you're responsible for, you're ensuring that, no matter what happens, you will be okay. And that is simple self-preservation.
Speaker 1:And I think it's important to recognize how often in these communities women are discouraged, if not punished, for engaging in the most basic acts of self-preservation. So, whether or not someone leaves the marriage, life happens, illness happens, job loss happens, accidents happen. Any of these scenarios could leave a person and their children in unnecessarily difficult situations if they're not preparing. But even if all those life realities didn't exist, the bottom line is each of us deserve financial autonomy. Taking moves, even if they're covert, even if they are done quietly, even if they are done independently, isn't being sneaky, it's being smart, it's not betraying anyone, it's about protecting yourself and the people you are responsible for. It's not a crime, it's common sense. And what responsible adult doesn't plan ahead? At the end of the day, a financially independent woman is not a threat. She's just a woman who refuses to be stuck.
Speaker 2:Right, and there's no shame for wanting equality, for wanting fairness and for wanting financial security In our household. Matt pays the bills, he does most of the financial managing. At the same time, I know how to get into any of the accounts, I know how to talk to our financial advisor and in many ways I don't think I realized how perhaps unusual that is. I realized how perhaps unusual that is and I would like to empower more relationships to be that way. And if you happen to be a man listening to this conversation this long, first of all, thank you. Props to you Exactly. But more importantly, there has to be enough space in a relationship for both of your comfort, for both parties to be comfortable, for both parties to be confident, for both parties to be engaged and have their needs met.
Speaker 2:Right, and I can nearly promise you that if you lean into the conversations your spouse wants to have and you can figure out a way to do that without feeling threatened, your life is going to be better too. Your relationship is going to be better. You will be happier, and I would also like to suggest that you do that sooner rather than later. There's a certain level of frustration that can happen when a spouse is asking and asking and asking for something for years and nothing changes until all of a sudden that spouse is exhausted and done and then, all of a sudden, changes start occurring. These were changes that could have probably happened 10 years ago, and here we are, and so there's also that level of grief that I've seen happen and with that comes a sense of betrayal and you know, like that, why did it take so long?
Speaker 1:Right, right, and that, and with that comes you risk bringing resentment into your relationship and that's toxic, that is so toxic. I'm so glad you made that point Because I I think, because I think that sometimes the level of financial autonomy that more women have in this generation right, that's unprecedented compared to previous generations in some sectors is framed as disempowering to men. But I just want to assure all the men, all the men listening out there, um, the men who are listening, and again, hats off to you. What would it be like to be liked, Not because you bring a paycheck, because, but because your wife and your kids just like being around you?
Speaker 1:What if they just like you because you are a warm and accepting and engaged person? What if it has nothing to do with the money you can provide? For centuries and centuries, men as the breadwinner have been framed as they haven't needed to be likable because everyone was financially dependent on them. The rest of the family is financially dependent on them. But this is an opportunity to be valued for more than just your paycheck. This is an opportunity to be valued for who you are and for being part of a team, for being part of a really dynamic and healthy relationship and family.
Speaker 2:Right and for sure. This is not about male versus female, husband versus wife. Males are bad, whatever. It's not about that. It's about many of us, and I think we said this in the beginning. Many of us have been fed really, really shitty guidelines and rules and advice. We've been given that from both sides, and it's an invitation to reconsider some of those scripts that some of us just assume are the way to live, and it's an invitation to reconsider that. It's an invitation to look at that and look at the ways that maybe we can make changes that not only benefit us but benefit future generations not only benefit us but benefit future generations.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely so. In our next episode, we're going to be looking at what are some ways that a stay-at-home parent can build financial autonomy aside from winning the lottery and I wish we could tell you that part. But we have some very practical steps that we want to share that can help ensure that, whether you're a stay-at-home parent or working outside the home with a 401k, either way, you have access to financial resources access to financial resources, to financial autonomy.
Speaker 2:So we would love to hear from you what are you struggling with or what have you been thinking about, or maybe what advice would you have for someone in this situation? What's something that you have done personally that has made a difference in your life?
Speaker 1:We'd love for this to be a community where we really support each other in being true to ourselves and exploring all that life has to offer. Is that too cheesy? Thanks everyone, it's been great chatting and we'll see you next time.
Speaker 2:Thank you for spending time with us today. The resources and materials we've mentioned are linked in the show notes and on Facebook at Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 1:What are your thoughts about college and recovery from high demand religion? We know you have your own questions and experiences and we want to talk about the topics that matter to you. Share them with us at uncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom. That's uncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.
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Speaker 1:Until next time stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward. Thank you.
