Uncovered: Life Beyond
Join the conversations of Rebecca and Naomi, two ex-Amish Mennonite women who jumped the proverbial fence in their younger years and later experienced college as first-gen, non-traditional students. They discuss pursuing formal education while raising a family, navigating the hidden curriculum of academia, and other dimensions of reimagining a life beyond high-demand religion. Send your questions to uncoveredlifebeyond@gmail.com.
Uncovered: Life Beyond
50. Mentorship Over Status: Credentials Aren’t the Prize— Uplifting Others Is (with special guest Rebekah Mui)
We're proud to introduce our friend, Rebekah Mui, who has traveled around the world in pursuit of education and more authentic faith expressions. Using her recent Facebook post as a point of departure, we discuss the role of mentorship in academia, the responsibilities of first-gen students to open doors for those who follow, and why deep learning necessarily leads to humility. (Content warning for a few spicy takes!)
• Driving your own car as a metaphor for religious deconstruction
• Discussing the role of mentorship in academia for first-generation students
• Strategies for advocating for oneself in educational settings
• Building meaningful connections and a supportive network
• The impact of cultural background on perspectives and narratives
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This is Rebecca and this is Naomi. We're 40-something moms and first cousins who know what it's like to veer off the path assigned to us.
Speaker 2:We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college and career, as we questioned our faith traditions while exploring new identities and ways of seeing the world.
Speaker 1:Without any maps for either of us to follow. We've had to figure things out as we go and appreciate that detours and dead ends are essential to the path Along the way, we've uncovered a few insights we want to share with fellow travelers.
Speaker 2:We want to talk about the questions we didn't know who to ask and the options we didn't know we had.
Speaker 1:So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking things up, we are here to cheer you on and assure you that the best is yet to come. Welcome to Uncovered Life Beyond. Hello everyone, welcome back to Uncovered Life Beyond. This is Naomi and this is Rebecca.
Speaker 2:Well, at least one, Rebecca.
Speaker 1:This is a very, very special episode for us because this is the first time that we have a guest on our podcast. That's true, Right, Usually, and this is actually. This has been in the works for a long time. It's enough of an accomplishment for us for the two of us to get on the mic at the same time. Adding in a third person has been a well, I guess we're leveling up.
Speaker 2:And we take every opportunity to celebrate. So you know we're going to celebrate this.
Speaker 1:And we take every opportunity to celebrate.
Speaker 2:So you know we're going to celebrate this, absolutely, absolutely. So, all that to say, we have Rebecca II here, rebecca Mui, my incredible friend. I was trying to remember how we met and it was online, but how did we connect?
Speaker 3:I know the first time I met you, I had only been in the States for a week, so I came over in August 2022. And very quickly, one of our friends was like well, we're going up to Anabaptist Orchestra Camp, and so then another friend of ours decided to host a party and I stayed with her. You're in. Holmes County yeah, one week after arriving.
Speaker 2:I did not know that. I mean, I remember the event, but I didn't realize you were here, just.
Speaker 3:Well, roughly, I mean, I was in Harrisonburg for a while, so like literally my first introduction to the East Coast, because we had traveled to the West Coast. My uncle lived there a couple of years, many times, but my first introduction to the East Coast was Harrisonburg, shenandoah and then Holmes County, jumping in the deep end. Yeah, yeah, I have to say I've since spent a lot more time in Holmes County than I have in Shenandoah.
Speaker 2:So what were your impressions at that first event? Because there was a lot of people there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you were there. You know, the funny thing is like we're all part of the same Facebook group. That's where Mrs Hostadler invited everybody and it's funny how, like, what a lovely big range of people there were from all over the spectrum. I think you were the most ex-Mennonite of everyone there. That's probably fair, actually, though you guys should have Patricia on at some point. She would be a great person to talk to, she would, oh that's right, they were there, and Judy was there too, yeah.
Speaker 3:Right, yep, so that's where were there, and judy was there too. Yeah, right, yep, so that's where trisha yes lewis lewis.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh awesome, yeah, I know her.
Speaker 2:Yeah, interesting, I did not like I did not realize you had been here only a week at that point. That is so fascinating. So what? What were your impressions?
Speaker 3:besides, for me, being the most ex-Mennonite, um, I didn't get to see much of anything at all in Berlin. I got to like we drove by and my first impression was I had read before somewhere that it was very touristy, like the first thing that hits you when you get to the area. First of all, it was very gray compared to Virginia, which I've learned is typical. But the second thing is just in your face. There was huge billboards for these weird plays that they have at the. You know that place down in the- the Curl Isle yeah the hollow thing.
Speaker 3:So the surface part of Holmes County is the first thing. Um, so you like, the surface part of holmes county is the first thing you see. And then when you spend more time and you actually get to know people, that's when you see a little bit more of actual like normal life. That's not on show for the tourists in a weird kitschy way, not even kitschy in a good way, it's just cringe. Cringe is the word.
Speaker 2:I love hearing your observations about Holmes County and I think it's fascinating. Well, first of all, because you mostly agree with me, which you know, but it's just, it's interesting hearing an outsider's take on it, I guess.
Speaker 1:I first met you last summer, so that would have been two years. You had been here two years by then, and I think one of the reasons why it's so interesting to hear your perspective on things is that I was blown away when I realized how relatively new your exposure was to all these. I was like, whoa, how did? Like you were picking up on nuances that people who have lived in it their whole lives don't recognize, or people who have studied it for a long time, the culture for a long time, don't recognize. And so, yeah, you're very, very insightful.
Speaker 1:Well, and the other thing I was going to say when, um Rebecca would talk about, uh, my friend Rebecca Mui, and I saw you online. I somehow got an impression of you and then, when I, when I met you in person, the, that impression was very different and and and this is good, this is a good thing but, like, my impression of you when I was like reading your things online was that you are, I don't know, maybe 30, something Like I mean like very mature, so mature. And then I met you and you're like so fun and such a sense of humor and such. You know, yeah, it was just a very different, it was just a very different persona than I was imagining when I'm with Rebecca, I think we have probably like a very similar vibe, like we are on a similar wavelength.
Speaker 3:So I'm constantly teasing her about being like this perfect beachy mom, like that is like I mean, we went down to that Amish what do you call it? Amish Collars Sy. You call Amish scholars symposium, which I don't know why.
Speaker 2:I was there Just to have a weekend with you know important people. That's a good enough reason, right?
Speaker 3:But I was so amused because Rebecca brought like a whole ice box full of food for the weekend and we went to Costco and it's just like I have a friend whose mom, mrs lab, did the exact same thing when we went to an airbnb for the weekend and I'm like it. Yeah, you, you're, you're very much who you are. You don't have to like put on, you know that you're not from a beachy background, you don't have to pretend to be something else, but you're also just kind of like living the fun, radical life too.
Speaker 2:Well, shall I tell you the truth, I think at some point you get too old, too tired, too lazy, too out of fucks to give and you just start being who you are. It's just easier, and you really pick up cool friends along the way.
Speaker 3:So thank you, giant roaster full of cheesy potatoes okay, okay.
Speaker 2:So in that moment I really did kind of feel like like who am I? Even? Yeah, I've become the person that makes the roaster full of potatoes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 1:Like it's a good thing it's a good thing, absolutely right, right, right but that was always someone else, oh, someone much more mature someone much. I was one of the grownups, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but yeah, how, how, how things change. So, yeah, how are we going to decide who is who? Or does it matter? Should we say movie? Yeah, I certainly am not, mrs Koblentz, you need to stop that.
Speaker 3:Okay, For now Just just for the next.
Speaker 2:If, if in your world you know Rebecca Mooey and she is referred to a Mrs Koblenz, it is not me. I am that, that's not me.
Speaker 1:It's your mother-in-law right.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly, exactly, and she could make a roast or potatoes, that's fine, and she could make a roast her potatoes.
Speaker 1:That's fine. So now that we've got that important point squared away, we should talk about why Rebecca Mui is on the podcast today, and I just want to say first of all, it kind of in this most recent attempt to get you on the podcast came about because of something you posted on Facebook that caught my attention and I was like, oh, we've got to talk about this. But before we get there, can you give us like the five minute version of how you, a young woman from Malaysia, came to be connected to these Anabaptist communities, these conservative Mennonite, these Anabaptist communities, these conservative Mennonite, formerly Amish kind of communities, and also academia, because you're also a PhD student here in the US.
Speaker 2:So, like what, what an interesting mix. And then you're hanging out with weirdos like us.
Speaker 1:So with old people like us, apparently that too right. Yeah, yeah, how did this?
Speaker 3:happen, um. So I kind of think it would have. Like I would have been aware of anabaptist theology like long ago, like maybe I was like 17 or 18 18, and I kind of agreed with but I didn't really think about it. And then after that point I kind of like this was way before deconstruction was a thing, but I kind of was like sick and done with a lot of the Christianity that I have seen. I tell people I'm from like a little subculture of a church that was heavily influenced by two different things. One would be like the what would today be Christian nationalist Pentecostals and charismatics and on the other hand, would also be Christian nationalist today Again, that term didn't exist 15 years ago but like fundamentalist independent Baptist homeschooling niches, so like ACE and IBLP specifically, were very big in our country. So our church was kind of like an intersection above of those things.
Speaker 2:There was a lot of abuse surfacing during that time you were talking about how your background was this, this intersection of IBLP and Pentecostal, is it?
Speaker 1:the um. Just you see my apostolic reformation.
Speaker 3:Yes, so there's a lot of influence from that in the culture, in evangelical christianity, in asian, actually around the world. Like panic, like it's one of the biggest denominations, there is a lot of toxic stuff, there is a lot of abuse, a lot of dominionism, like let's, you know the the prayers are meant to signal christian nationalism, like let's tear this down so that we can take over it, like everything. There are specific like movements of that in my country that were very cultish, like you know, extreme healing, you know anti-medicine, like all kinds of Wow, end times, end times was a big one. So-and-so, president is the Antichrist was a big one. Um, so and so president is the antichrist was a big one. Like it's funny, so that was the kind of, but anyway.
Speaker 3:So I took a break from all that for like six, seven years and then I was in ireland in 2016 and so I think being there in the environment with the kind of like values that people have in a very humble and in a Christian in a different way kind of culture, like very anti-imperial Christianity and in Irish culture, made me move away or at least realize some of the flaws in, in how christians perceive like taking over the government, you know, uh, patriarchy, that kind of thing, um, and so by the time, like by 2018 or so, I was finishing my master's degree and looking to do my parents really wanted me to keep on doing research, since I seem to be good at it, I guess, and so I was like, hmm, maybe I could do theology, political theology.
Speaker 3:And then I started getting into random kingdom Christian, which basically is like charity Mennonite Facebook groups, out of almost by curiosity, almost by accident, and that's when I met people who are really advocates against abuse and this is something that was really interesting to me because for the most part, like the like Homeschoolers, anonymous, those kind of ex-fundamentalist movements or websites and all that we're very much anti-religion, but here are and I still find this really interesting here are really conservative people or conservative Christians who were also actively about uncovering some of these abuses and these questions about fundamentalism, and so I found that really fascinating.
Speaker 3:And then I guess I slowly got sucked in in the sense of like, um, they would be curious about someone from overseas and want to interview me on the podcast and so forth, and then it kind of like I was on several anabaptist podcasts before coming here. Yeah, so that's how I got to know a lot of people through all the like advocacy stuff. That's one subject like to me, the christian nationalist stuff and the abuse stuff are the same question. It's just two aspects of the same toxic, uh violent belief system and therefore I kind of my uh dissertation project kind of combines both of these things to look at like the history of christian empire and constantine, but from the perspective of sexual violence wow.
Speaker 2:So I have two questions. One did you have gothard influence too? Yeah, that was iblp. Oh, he came.
Speaker 3:He came to malaysia uh, our family wasn't in the program but the minister was in our church and that was like our one year. Our entire church camp retreat was just a Goddard seminar, his advanced seminar that we, including children, listen to, including all his advice about sex.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, and I just think it is incredible how that stuff travels.
Speaker 3:That way it's branded as mainstream Christianity. It's not branded as a fundamentalist offshoot, it is very mainstream. People from big evangelical megachurches were involved in the program.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow, okay, and not to go off on too deep a tangent here, but I think what is really interesting to me to bring all this full circle is to what degree Watchman Nee, who was a Chinese Christian in the early 20th century, to what degree his writings influenced Gothard, and it was a very hierarchical message, and so I think that's an interesting. Well, let's just say, as someone who was trained in the humanities, I know, especially in a post-colonial perspective, I know that it's very problematic to talk about human nature as if it's some universal, same kind of thing. And yet, and yet, I think it is so interesting how that message of hierarchy and consolidating power has appeal across cultures.
Speaker 3:The very niche that Watchman Nee promoted was a kind of what I would call spirituality, like that internal narration of your life that you always go back to God and like this, this whole, like you know, the biggest one is dying to yourself and surrendering yourself to God.
Speaker 3:Watchman Nee was very big on that.
Speaker 3:Goddard was big in that gothic speaking, that when I had deconstructed some of the more obvious aspects of gothic theology, that was harmful.
Speaker 3:I didn't realize until I went back to one of their websites and I happened to come across a video about this woman talking about, essentially, she was beating herself up spiritually because, uh, she was. She was really interested in someone, and in that world women are not supposed to express any interest in men, right, and you're not supposed to have any desires whatsoever. And so the way that she talked about her relationship with God was about constantly surrendering every desire, doing nothing about it and feeling like she was the problem. And then I realized that I had absorbed this part of spirituality not just from IBLP but also from Watchman Nee, whom our church literally went through almost all his books about the, the mind games that you play, and you don't even realize that this is abusive because that's just how your mind works and that's how you think about god, and you know faith and religion, which. So I would say there are many, many layers to that, because it's what you're programmed in.
Speaker 2:That's a short form of it, I guess so, since you're talking about deconstruction, let's just take a little bit of time. Tell me what deconstruction is like or was like for you, because I know it's this big, scary bad thing and I think it's actually rather fascinating, but I would love to hear what it meant for you.
Speaker 3:I just wrote like a Twitter post on this. So, like, the short form of this is that your life is like a car and someone else is in the driver's seat. Now you uh that's that person is in driver's seat like telling you everything, uh, and controlling your life and telling you what you need to believe to be saved and basically everything that you learn about salvation is through this conduit. It may be one, it sometimes is the entire church community. It could be a certain like denomination or doctrine. It's just represented by someone else driving your car.
Speaker 3:To me, deconstruction is like saying I want to drive this car and actually decide for myself and not have this middle person who, like, imagine the amount of control you have over someone's life. If you believe that your right doctrine is what is going to save them and they have to eat it out of your hands, like, then so, but then when you say you want to sit in that driver's seat, this human being will tell you how dare you? Right, because this is where you're. You know, this is where Jesus should be. No one should have the audacity to drive their own car. This is rebellion. Your life is going to go out of control. But then you turn around and say but you are a human being and you're sitting in my driver's seat and therefore, yeah. So that's the picture that I have of deconstruction it's taking over your own car and being told all your life that you're never supposed to drive this car your own car and being told all your life that you're never supposed to drive this car.
Speaker 3:Well, a human being is driving it.
Speaker 1:And would you say, is it reading too much into your metaphor to say that before deconstruction, you believe that Jesus is driving the car? Deconstruction is what happens after you realize. Oh no, it's not Jesus driving the car, it's this other human being who is driving the car, claiming to be Jesus.
Speaker 3:They can hold. Yeah, exactly, it's realizing how human it is and how their doctrines or whatever system they set up. It's not about the doctrine, it's the fact that you are taking this doctrine via this person who has to define all truth for you.
Speaker 2:And it's their ability to convince us that, once again, we just don't know, we're stupid. We're emotional creatures, yeah yeah, yeah. And world. This is why I love Rebecca Mui. We need more Rebecca Mui. And, by the way, do you know how nearly I didn't attend that dinner a week after you came to the US, which, yeah, anyway, how sad that would have been. Well, I know how sad it would have been, so yes, yes, wow, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I like that point you made too there about how it's even less about the specific doctrine of teaching than about someone driving your car and claiming it's actually Jesus driving your car, because that, for me, was so huge in my deconstruction to the. The issue itself was like I didn't really care about. It wasn't even that big a deal. It was just recognizing oh wait, that's not Jesus in the driver's seat, someone claiming to be or claiming or claiming to speak for. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think it's easy, when we start making that realization, to, instead of step back and go through the process of deconstruction, we simply look for another person to take the driver's seat, believing we can't do it. And we fill in with other doctrine, we fill in with different quote leaders and it's easy to feel quite proud of our growth, but internally very little has changed. We just now believe something new and I think in that process it's so easy to do a lot of damage and to cause a lot of pain.
Speaker 3:So how old were both of you when you were baptized into the Beachy Church?
Speaker 2:I was 16. And I was old.
Speaker 3:They were concerned about me. They were concerned.
Speaker 2:They were concerned about me.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, me too. I was 16 too and yeah, it was older and it was. It was kind of like a. For me it was kind of a. It just kind of worked out that way. It wasn't like I was dragging my heels, it just kind of worked out that way.
Speaker 2:I was dragging my heels and it wasn't the beachy church I was baptized into. It was a Mid-Atlantic which is very close to Eastern Mennonite, mennonite, this is Beachy.
Speaker 3:Amish and then Mid-Atlantic Mennonite, the difference is was everyone else in this church from like a Beachy or Amish background, or were they all from Mennonite background or mix?
Speaker 2:Me. For mine, most of them would have been like the mid-Atlantic. There were some newbie people coming in, but the core group would have been an older version of the Mennonite group that they were a part of. But even by those terms I was old, like 12, 13 would have been more.
Speaker 3:yeah that's what I heard, uh the thing like. So I was at the abuse symposium with um this, this couple that I had met online, and the husband, uh, was saying you know, if you look around us, everyone believes that a certain period of time in history is where God intends us to be. You know, whether it's the Amish in the mid 19th century or whether it's the Mennonites in the mid 20th century, everyone has this ideal period. Who's who's right? And I said you know in it just occurred to me in that moment. I said for plain groups that you know you're right if your children stay in the group. That's the gold standard. That's what it has become. It's become and only in the last hundred years, because before that most children converted out. Baptism wasn't until you got married in the Mennonite church and also with the Amish, so like nine out of 10 with it left and they were okay with that. You choose your path in life, which is the core.
Speaker 2:That's the core of Anabaptist faith.
Speaker 3:Right In the last. Whatever it has been about growing your children in a greenhouse and making sure they do not change one iota from what your standard, how you dress, how you live, as long as your children don't move from that, you have succeeded as a conservative Anabaptist. That is a problem because it contradicts the very tenet of Anabaptism.
Speaker 2:Adult baptism.
Speaker 3:For a lot of my friends, the deconstruction comes from the fact that the Anabaptism they were taught and that comes from the environment was more Christian nationalist, was more Gothard, was more Watchman or whoever else than it actually was. You know Anabaptism.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I think we've talked about it. That, or I know I have certainly said that I feel like I left the Mennonites to become Anabaptist, you know, or?
Speaker 2:the Amish.
Speaker 1:Mennonites to become.
Speaker 2:Anabaptist and I would agree, because it's almost like I've been doing this, circling around like oh well, yeah, I don't know that the Anabaptist necessarily would embrace me at this point anymore, but sometimes I'm like I'm coming, I might be coming back, sort of a little bit.
Speaker 1:Because there's a philosophy of it. There's. There's a lot to admire just philosophically, aside from religious identity, right.
Speaker 3:It would. Anabaptism today would be what would happen if the deconstruction movement in 2025, after 500 years became about keeping your kids in this, because they started very much. We're going to read for ourselves, we're going to think for ourselves and we're going to reject the baptism that was imposed on us against our will in the culture and choose for ourselves and choose for ourselves. So this is, I guess, a good warning to whatever comes out of this large exodus from evangelicalism or Christianity. It's like you could just become that very thing in 500 years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's very likely. Oh, I mean, I think maybe that's just part of the cycle of history that repeats itself, and I don't know if there's any way to create a movement or create an identity that doesn't fall into that at some point. I don't know. I don't know, it's not my job to figure that out, but I don't have that all figured out for sure. So shall we talk about mentorship in academia? And do you want to tell us about that Facebook post that you published recently where you were talking to and I don't have it here in front of me now, I should, but you were talking about the role of mentorship and kind of explanation or maybe a guide to maybe non-traditional, maybe first generation students about the purpose, the role, what they should and could expect from mentorship in academia. Is that right? Yeah, did I get those themes right? So can you talk about what prompted that post? Was there a someone needs to hear this moment, or was it something that brought this about in your own experience that you felt this needed to be said?
Speaker 3:Well, it's an ongoing conversation with Rebecca, because what we have both found is that sometimes even people who have struggled through from non-traditional backgrounds and achieve a certain place in academia, they want to close the gate to other people. They want to use that as a position of hierarchical achievement and it just is such an awful vibe. But for me I sensed that because there was someone like in my close family who was very abusive to everyone, verbally abusive and who had gotten a PhD. Now this person is actually like flunked out of a year of their degree and just is in general, everybody knows they're not, they were they. They happened to get a PhD because it was paid for and that's just how they ended up getting it.
Speaker 3:But it became like this thing that, like my class of people especially I belong to, like this elite, like that was this strong sense of elitism that went along with this person's honestly, narcissism and abuse of other people, and so to me that's always something really off-putting. I don't go into to conversations with people wearing my education as like a, like a badge on my forehead or this is how you interact with me. I'd much rather the opposite, and that's something Rebecca has found as well. That's like there are people who who put up these walls and it's really irritating, and when I see that happening, it irritates me too, because it it it isn't meant to create a special class of people. It's actually just meant to like. The higher you go, it's more about you being really interested in your niche and knowing a lot about this. One thing it doesn't mean you know about everything. It's the more you know about less. Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 3:What prompted the post was just thinking about the fact, and the summary of it is this like a good academic is someone who is good at helping other people and mentoring other people If they are putting up these barriers and if they're making themselves up to be, you know, aloof, unhelpful, standoffish to students or whoever else. They're not good academics Because the core of their job, what they're paid to do, is to help other people and to teach and to mentor and advise and be on committees.
Speaker 1:You know, as you say, that I think about one of my mentors from graduate school who was known to be incredibly helpful. I mean, she was the kind of person who was always introducing students her grad students to established scholars in the field. You know, she was so helpful and one time when I had gone to talk with her about some things and I really was appreciative of her advice or recommendation or whatever it was, she was like, ah, just my job, and so yeah. She was like, ah, just my job, and so yeah. And to be honest, like now that I'm writing letters of recommendation for students you know who are applying for internships or, you know, grad school or whatever, that is that's the joy of my job Sitting down with a student who is applying for grad school and helping them find their story. That is so. You know, everybody's got a remarkable story and often they're the last to find out, but I'm there to help them find it.
Speaker 2:Like that is the best part that is the best part of my job and I think this is an important conversation, because I don't think anyone is going to argue that there is certainly this class system within Anabaptist circles and, for whatever reason, I wasn't expecting it in academia.
Speaker 1:And when I first encountered it, I was not expecting it, well, okay.
Speaker 2:So how old were you guys until you realized that not every doctor out there was a doctor, simply because they wanted to help the hurting? I was way too old until I realized some of them just want money, like in my culture.
Speaker 3:Well, in my culture everyone's parents wants them to be doctors and they kind of have to be. They don't have choice.
Speaker 2:So it's like, see, I for a long time like I bet I was easily into my 20s and I truly believe that every doctor was out there just wanting to save every sick person they ran into and that was why they were in medicine. And all of a sudden I had this realization oh you want the money involved. Oh you want the money involved. And I think I went into academia the same way, just thinking everyone in academia wants to ensure that everyone gets an education. I mean, I'd been listening to Naomi for the last 30 years of my life telling me how important this is, and so I just had not entertained the possibility of there being this hierarchy. And when I first ran into it, I just remember being absolutely both shocked, pissed off, like just I was so angry about it.
Speaker 1:Well, I can't believe I left that out. I didn't mean to leave that. I guess this is. This is the difference between you and me. You assume purity of heart and everybody you run into, and then I'm expecting cynicism. So that's maybe how we can understand that, that misconception or that miscommunication.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, and I think there's also this thing of I don't know if it's purity of heart, so much as I just like to believe and imagine the world is kind and good. Yeah, and I mean you probably did, you know, give accounts of that happening. I don't think I believe myself to be anything special, but I think I believed, if I did hear those cases, that it was like well, it happened for this person, but the next 20 people are not going to encounter it. You know, and yeah, I mean it's fair, I do like to imagine that the world is kind and good and you know something that kind of pisses me off is that so many of my friends are like kind of like yourself.
Speaker 3:You know they're moms and they're trying to get a degree and starting with a community college. There is something about community college professors that seem to want a power trip. Community college professors that seem to want a power trip, like I have not seen this level of weird, like you know, you didn't. You know, just taking away people's grades for no good reason, having unreasonable standards or unreasonable, and when I hear this, the things that, like, people who go to community college, especially if they're older, really want to learn and really want this. And then you're faced by professors who maybe are going to this and you know they, they want to, they want to lord it over people, they, they want to prove that they're somebody by essentially abusing their students like we've.
Speaker 3:We read that you know they, they take away grades for no good reason, the assignment standards are unclear, the teaching is, and you know that really frustrates me a lot when I read about this, because I have not encountered that in professors where I am for the most part, and I'm kind of wondering it's do they have like a kind of chip on their shoulder that they go into community colleges wanting to like okay, my experience has been that, like whenever I've approached a new level whether it's high school or college or grad school, and then a professor, like when I'm approaching that threshold, I see it as like, if I can just get over that threshold, then I'm gonna be in the promised land, then it's all gonna be, it's all gonna be good.
Speaker 1:And then I get there and I find that no, there's hierarchy here too, there's hierarchy within the thing, and I finally, I think, learned to expect that. So, my, you know, most recently it was like being a tenure track professor and then getting tenure. It's like you get tenure and then you realize like there's still a carrot. Well, I'm not chasing it, let me tell you, it's not a big enough carrot to chase. But I guess what I'm saying is like there's still and that didn't come as a surprise because you know by now I knew to expect it. I'm just saying I think that's part of it.
Speaker 1:And also, I don't know. I mean, it's so sad to me to hear what you're saying about community college professors. I have very little experience with community college professors. I took one community college class and I know some who are take, you know, their work with students very seriously, but I also know that within. I think, when you said a chip on your shoulder, that would be my go to explanation for what you're talking about. That. Yes, it's because, just in, just in the naked terms of cachet or status, you know community colleges are pretty close to the bottom of the status hierarchy in higher education. I can see why someone in that role might go in expecting they're going to be disrespected and so they kind of go in with that chip on their shoulder. Well, but then to students students, especially someone who's new to academia that doesn't that they're not thinking about that. Oh, they think about this. The professor yeah, who?
Speaker 3:who is the boss? Who decides your fate? You know on a whim? No, the reason why I say that is because many of your listeners, especially like most of the people I've heard these stories from, are from moms. Like it's like if someone you know you ask for help, they should, or clarification, they shoot you a nasty email and threaten to like that really plays with your head and that is like I'm sure has things to say on this.
Speaker 1:Yeah mrs coblins, sorry.
Speaker 2:I hate having this discussion, but I think it's important because I think it affects a lot of our listeners. I want to be the first in line to support and defend community college. Community college is usually closer for those of us who are in rural areas and community college is cheaper, and I think community colleges have the best of the best professors, but then the worst of the worst.
Speaker 1:Does that make?
Speaker 2:sense? Yeah, it does. I think there is a certain level and I want to be kind when I say this, but washed up people, maybe old white men who didn't make the cut, and they are angry about it and they're power tripping. They don't have many years left in their power tripping the crap out of it. Because I have had some of the kindest, um, most helpful, good people as professors in community college, but I've also had some of the meanest people. I had to realize that the same skills I needed in the Anabaptist, amish, mennonite world to function there are the same skills I need to deal with those professors. And when I figured that out it was like, oh well, I've been here before and made it feel less intimidating. Most of them aren't prepared for you to push back. I mean, I just recently had a professor explain Christianity to me for like 30 minutes and he just went on and on and on.
Speaker 2:And I'm like really really, and on and on and I'm like really really. But since that conversation I have all of a sudden kind of became his favorite student, it seems like.
Speaker 1:And there's a part of me there's a part of me about this development.
Speaker 2:I've been watching it. I've been watching it. What happened? There's a part of me that's mad because I think I gave him what he wanted. So there's a sense that there's a part of me who's mad about that. I gave him what he wanted, but at the same time, I still push back and say what I want to say and I think, to a level, I gave him what he wanted, but at the same time, he knows that. I know, does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Is it that you you listening without your eyes totally glazing over, at least in a way that he would recognize probably set you apart from the vast majority of the other students in the class? Yeah, probably. Okay, so now he feels like he can have a conversation with you? Yeah, and do you so? He feels like he maybe he's taking you more seriously, is that? Is that it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and you have to do a lot of writing in this class, and so I know to parrot enough of his lectures in my writing to affirm him. But I also know how to weave in enough of my own interpretations and well, this is bullshit narratives. So I'm affirming him, I'm saying in the lecture it was, you know, brilliantly stated.
Speaker 1:Not brilliantly stated, but you know.
Speaker 2:I know how to affirm, but still be like but this is bullshit yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, there you go, lesson.
Speaker 2:But isn't that what you have to do in religious circles? That's exactly what you're doing in religious circles.
Speaker 1:I think that's what you have to do in human circles. Okay, in human circles, because it's like an ego thing, I mean, I don't know, there's a lot of different ways you could explain it Right. But I in academia, figuring out how to disagree without coming off in the wrong way, and I I'll never made he made a reference about the way you use the literature, the materials to support your arguments is, I don't know, noteworthy or something.
Speaker 2:I don't know how he said it, but that's. I think a lot of those professors are going to want a little bit of affirmation, so affirm them. Like you know, you said this and yes, yes, yes, but also. This is kind of dumb.
Speaker 3:I think one of the things that we do have to, I guess or it helps to learn very quickly maybe is that like engaging with an idea, even if it's to disagree or debate with it, is something, something that really helps because like, uh, the thing that the example that comes to mind is when I first started reading Anabaptist research, I read the Mennonite Quarterly Review and there's this friendly rivalry going on. They are dissing each other. It's like an in-house battle over whose interpretation of Conrad Grebel's life is totally wrong. And then they'll be like I fought for 20 years with the historical society on this one point, like I fought for 20 years with the historical society on this one point. Like, but it's a, there's a loving kind of jab that's going on. There's, there's a vibe there. It's the entire history of this journals. People like yelling at each other by, you know, in scholarly texts. So if, even critically engaging with someone and you completely disagree with them and dismantle their arguments, it is still very flattering, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, there's a certain, there's a certain amount of not pride, but a certain amount of approval. That's not the right word either. You get credibility from it.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yeah and OK, yes, yes, yeah and okay. And then another interpretation of it too is a you're signaling to the, to the professor, that the point they were trying to get across landed, so you got it, so they feel like they've. Okay, she gets this right. But also, rhetorically, we can't advance an argument successfully with someone until we have some common ground established, and so by you reaffirming what was said in the lecture and the class and the course materials, you are creating common ground then from there, from which you can then say and therefore, and then this, and then this is, and push back against the part that you disagree with, and then this, and then this is, and push back against the part that you disagree with. But by establishing common ground, it's made it possible for them to hear the disagreement too. I mean, it just shows that, yeah, you are on the same page here, you're not missing their point, you get their point and also you disagree.
Speaker 3:Well, and who knows, maybe in that meeting he figured out I'm an old, tired woman who's just over it maybe. Maybe he figured that out. It makes a big difference, like I think, from perspective as a student it makes a big difference to be the student in a room who's actually paying attention and has an interest in the class, like it. It is very from the professor's point of view. You know who those students are who actually want to be there, yeah, and that makes your job worthwhile. So even like, if you're in the class, you love learning, you have an interest, you ask questions, you're actually present, then they know who you are. That's a good thing too in some ways. Now you know who to stay away from. After a while you figure that's a good thing too. In some ways you know who to stay away from. After a while you figure out who's power tripping, who has bad vibes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, someone with the initial s*** will never, ever, ever receive a pass in my book.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he was a shoddy professor and mean but the fact that even I don't know how, he was power tripping all day long but the fact that even people who are peers with or even superior to said professor could sense something was wrong and want to do something about it tells you a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like from both ends, both from the students and at the bottom of the rung, and people who are above this person, like, yeah, everybody soon realizes there's, there's a. They're like acclimatizing yourself to an environment with institutional drama. The the first thing people tell you stay out of the drama, but it's good to be in the know, like what the vibes are, what the office politics are. You know, unfortunately it is like a workplace. Unfortunately you're gonna have to have a thick enough skin to deal with all of that if you want to be in this space.
Speaker 2:I think right the other thing I'll say before we move on regarding community college pushing back won't get you anywhere, Like going to the top and going up the chain as far as like. I had a professor talking about how horrible it is to use contraceptives in a classroom. These are young, these were CCP kids, these were kids still in high school. He had no business, but it was against his religious beliefs. Professor bluntly said and talked about you know well, we know which race scores worse on IQ testing. He bluntly had that conversation. I complained oh, I had a professor use the R word. I complained, complained. It never got anywhere. In fact, I think it got used against me then by the professor every time. So I don't think, in my experience, talking about it doesn't get you anywhere. Oh, you can give those reviews every semester. Trust me, we give honest reviews.
Speaker 3:Sorry, they may not read them.
Speaker 2:Oh their bosses do their supervisors do, I think at community college they do. Okay, I do think and I'm very honest about that, good, and I encourage kids I'm with to be honest about that as well.
Speaker 3:Can I just say, thinking about the anonymous review, right, there is a recognition that students can be abused in the power system that is the academy, and so they at least have a way for you to voice this in a safe place. This is something that churches could learn from the fact that. One, I want to listen to you. Two, how are you experiencing this without it being manipulated back against you because it's anonymous? I know that seems like there's an awareness there that you don't really find in churches.
Speaker 2:And that's true Because there was one professor. On his review I wrote he is emotionally abusing these kids and I'm not quite sure why you guys let it go. That was his last semester. Whether it was because of what I wrote, I don't know, but yeah, and he was another Amish expert professor.
Speaker 1:When I think about other first gen students listening to this, or perspective ones. I just want to say that, a of all, even if it feels like speaking out like that didn't make a difference, it was still the right thing to do. But, b of all, like and I say this from the perspective of the institution where I am right now, which you know, every institution is different. But there's been a lot of talk, and in higher ed generally, about the validity of those end of semester evals. My view is that they are important but they are not like they shouldn't like determine. In some schools they determine merit raises and they determine like they're hugely influential. At other schools, they're taken into consideration.
Speaker 1:My understanding is that, generally speaking, the supervisors are looking for patterns. So if your one comment was made an outlier and everybody else was saying all these glowing things, then it wouldn't have made a difference probably. But that's why it's still important to say something, even if it doesn't change, because it's building a paper trail so that if there is that kind of thing going on, it's there. But like the other thing too is like who knows what the motivations of the supervisor are. It could be a supervisor who's like eh, whatever. Or it could be a supervisor who really cares, like. When I say supervisor, like whoever that person is that's looking at them, is overseeing, who knows what, the hiring situation. Maybe they're desperately looking for someone else to take that place.
Speaker 2:Which often happens.
Speaker 1:That often happens at community college levels, and so they're like well, got to have someone to teach it because students got to graduate. Students have to have this course so they can graduate. Million and one different scenarios. These are just a few For me. Like the takeaway for anyone listening is talk to someone until you find someone who hears you. Because, like I think about that, one time you had a situation where and it was like what it was like the end of 2020, the end of the spring semester 2020.
Speaker 1:So, everything was up in the air, everything was like just, and there was a situation and you went and then, finally and talked with a professor who was like you, someone you were close to, right.
Speaker 2:Or had a closer relationship with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and he took care of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:My advice would be that someone cares. You might have to, depending on the situation, you might have to knock on several doors before you find that person. But, like, if I have a colleague who's acting like that, I want to know, and I know a lot of my colleagues want to know too Right.
Speaker 2:Well, and more importantly for me, I decided to use these scenarios as not as a reason to quit, but as a reason to practice, advocating for myself and for others.
Speaker 1:So what if I?
Speaker 2:didn't do a good job of it. I could do it, I could practice it and then next time it happened I had better skills and I know having done those sometimes well, sometimes not so well with professors has absolutely made me a better advocate now, and it was a fairly safe place to do that and at least familiarize myself with some of those skills, because you're gonna have to do that in the workplace too.
Speaker 3:Right, right, exactly yeah, and in personal life and in exactly exactly so how, how did y'all find advocating your for yourself to like learning, like learning how to walk in those shoes, in comparison to sort of the, the training you know, the? Uh, I was just reading through the united bethel mennonite church. United bethel mennonite church report, by grace, on the sexual abuse. Isn't that horrible? It is one of the most damning reports. That really says the quiet part out loud it. But the, the, the girls, like literally said we couldn't even say that we were uncomfortable with having a convicted rapist in the youth group. Content warning, uh, because like we would be the bad person for excluding somebody, so like this censorship, silencing. I've read studies on how like women are trained to be, to be compliant, to make sure everybody is happy, like, how do you get out of that mode? Uh, and then going to a you know, go to college where you have to advocate for yourself or complain it about a professor, and it isn't the problem. Isn't you realizing, maybe, that it is their problem?
Speaker 2:for the record, let me just backtrack here. What Rebecca is talking about is um out of the BMA organization and it happened in Plain City Ohio. Um and Walter Beachy was one of the influential people at some point. Yeah, when it was getting started, and this would have happened at his church, and if you search for it you can easily and I guess we can put it in the show notes too. But it was a horrible, horrible sexual abuse.
Speaker 3:Ten abusers in that one church.
Speaker 2:Lots of family relations. It was horrible Culture of abuse.
Speaker 3:Yeah, sounds like yes. Yeah, yeah, abusers in that one church, lots of family relations it was horrible. Culture of abuse. Yeah, sounds like yes. Yeah, yeah, the foundation yeah. Many of our listeners would probably be coming from an environment where you have to self-censor or even their very frame of mind is like the problem is always me. You're just not, you know, submiss enough, or you're not pleasant and kind and whatever enough to go from that to being in an academic or workspace where you're, yeah, speaking up, complaining or advocating for yourself is something you actually. It's a life skill that women are being trained not to do like.
Speaker 2:How does one of my first years in college. The one class was a mess. It was the professor who talked about um, the horribleness of contraceptives, and he's the one who talked about um huckleberry finn and and how he saved the slave. But we should, yeah, and, but we should report undocumented citizens and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was bad. And at very early on I realized and I think many of us have the skill we know how to show up and we know how to read a room and then we know how to deliver. What happens if I practice showing up, refusing to read that? What if my goal this semester is just to show up and do everything I can, not to read the room, and just to be who I think I need to be and to say what I need to say. And I think I remember even telling Naomi that this is what I'm doing. I'm practicing showing up, not reading the room. I'm practicing showing up as if I don't have that skill. It was kind of freeing and I crossed my arms a few times and told him he was full of crap. I mean, I didn't say you're full of crap, but I'm like. I literally crossed my arms and I said I'm so confused.
Speaker 2:You tell stories about your friend who, literally, you saw robbing hubcaps and car lights out of parking lots and you didn't report him, am I correct? And he's like I told you about John and I'm like, yes, you did, but yet you think and you romanticize a fictional character who, I agree with you, did the right thing he saved Jim. But you think we should report undocumented citizens. Are you serious? And I knew there were younger kids in the room. I knew there were kids in the room who, very well, potentially could not be documented as well.
Speaker 2:And I am like there is no way on earth I'm going to sit here and pretend what you're saying is good or right and I am like there is no way on earth I'm going to sit here and pretend what you're saying is good or right. And I was docked. He gave me he that those professors always made sure that I got an A minus 89. They always gave me an 89. It was magical the way it worked out. There was four of them, including 89. But I took it as a job well done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like that idea of going in without the idea of reading the room, because what goes along with that is is then adjusting to meet those expectations of what? Yeah, whatever, whatever you see there.
Speaker 3:It's amazing how much space you can ask for if you realize that you can ask for things like extensions. Yes, it surprised me when I realized my brother was asking for extensions, because never in undergrad, master's degree, right up to now, I have never asked for an extension and I always thought deadlines are deadlines. So it's only in recent years have I realized that I have one of the most compliant students there are like but it's also having that self-awareness to to be like oh okay, I can ask for space so I can ask for a different question. I can, uh, there's a little bit more leeway than what I'm giving myself. It's good to recognize that, especially if you uh, you were raised to always, you know, follow the rules and be, a type a person that that you can actually step out of that, maybe a little bit, just know.
Speaker 2:One of my favorite professors said at the beginning of every semester. She said life happens. Life happens to all of us. You always have a two day extension on a deadline, always, and if, for whatever reason, you need more, let me know. There was another professor who said one of the assignments was write me and tell me about the thing that you think is going to be your biggest barrier to succeed this semester. So I mean you guys there's some professors out there that are like Naomi nailing it, and when you hear stories about the bad ones, don't be afraid, just know it's going to happen. But you have the skills it takes to navigate that. And, yeah, you don't always have to follow the rules.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was me too. As far as asking for extensions and that kind of thing, I did get an extension in undergrad when I had to go to a funeral and I remember feeling like, like, like I was really getting away with it. And now, now that I'm on the other side of it and I see how often extensions get handed out and it's also a post COVID thing, it's a deadlines have become a different thing.
Speaker 2:But I still read syllabusabuses though. Syllabus, syllabize, yeah, syllabize. No extensions under no circumstances Like. I've had. I've had one semester or one. This semester says that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm sure, yeah, I'm sure they're out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then that language. If you're a rule follower, that that language will suggest that you absolutely shouldn't ask.
Speaker 1:You're right. You're right. It gives that perspective and for some professors I mean, I guess it's a good idea to ask let's put it that way as much as you can develop a relationship as much as you can develop a relationship with your professor.
Speaker 2:Always reach out, always create some kind of question early on in the class that you may or may not have. Just ask a question, develop a relationship, and I think that's the other thing. We're taught really not to ask questions because we should know everything, we should figure it out, we should be reading, we should you don't want to sound stupid. Early on in the semester, come up with a reason to ask a question. Shoot a personal email just do it.
Speaker 1:I've even started.
Speaker 2:if I drop classes, I'll send the professor an email and explain that I'm dropping it and kind of give a good reason why I'm dropping it, because I might have to pick up the class, especially if you're like at a community college, you might have to have him later, you might have to have that same professor later and I don't know. I want to be the person that they remember replying back.
Speaker 3:In most cases. I've always found personally that it's good to be recognized in a sea of 50 undergrads or 100. It's good to be someone who's memorable, besides for being the old person, because in most cases now you don't want to stand out like if you have a toxic professor who's who's gonna pick on you. Maybe that, but, but it always. It always helps to like be there, ask questions, stand out, be someone they'll remember and appreciate, because that really helps you down the line. It does.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, it does, and that's. And if I have a student, come by my office at the beginning of the semester. I mean and this happened once in a blue moon, but if you really want to make yourself stand out, yes, if you have a question, or even if you don't have a question, if you come by and say, yeah, I was just wanting to come around and say hi to all my professors, you will automatically put in the oh, this is one of the conscientious ones, fox, yeah, yeah, in that category. Like that will you? I was gonna say you become a teacher's pet, like, but you know what I mean. Like that will make you stand out very quickly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, I build in a lot of conferences, like into my first year writing classes, just to get students in the habit of coming in. And then I try to make those conversations very positive and rewarding. And rewarding because I find for a lot of students at that stage you know they're just fresh out of high school and they're they're still learning that it's okay to ask for help. You know, I feel like so much of what I do is convince them that they don't have to know everything right away, that learning is not about just a performance, but so many come in with this kind of assumption that it's just a performance and I'm like with this kind of assumption that it's just a performance, and I'm like you know, come on, let's chat, let's have a conversation.
Speaker 3:So yeah, this might be a helpful. I guess that's really helpful for people who might come into higher education from like a Christian school or homeschooling background but maybe think, oh well, the public school students know everything and they're just ready.
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah it helps to think about uh real, maybe that for what you describe and I have found this true teaching overseas, like back in malaysia is that sometimes having had 12 years of schooling doesn't necessarily give you an advantage. There's a there's a strong culture of sit in your chair and do what you're told Don't ask too many questions, don't make trouble, and so it helps maybe to think of higher education as almost being a completely different mode. It's like a blank slate, in the sense of it's not going to be like your previous education. Whatever you came from, it is an environment which supposedly ideally, it's an environment which supposedly ideally encourages inquiry and research and debate and participation and far more autonomy and especially self-regulation and self-discipline.
Speaker 3:And sometimes you can think of yourself as maybe having a bit of an advantage. Maybe you had to sit in a cubicle in your ACE school and fill in workbooks, but you learn how to guide yourself and be self-reliant, to manage your own time. These are some advantages that you have that could really help you. So don't feel like you're a disadvantage. I would say.
Speaker 1:I agree, you have to make use of the resources we have, the advantages we do have, absolutely, yeah. And I think the pushing back on ideas is really important. When I think the trick is keeping it about the ideas and not about the, so it doesn't feel well. It's about the ideas, but also it's about having reasons. You know, being able to to give good reasons for the pushback makes makes a big difference. I mean, it makes a big difference until you run into somebody that doesn't care about those things.
Speaker 1:So I'm looking here at our questions, our conversation has kind of gone a different direction, which is awesome, yeah, but I, I expected it to, yeah, yeah. So we started out talking about mentorship from the perspective of what a mentor or what those who gone before, oh to those coming along behind, or oh, I'm using that generally, but like, I'm using that generally, but like, what advice would you give to someone, say, who is going into academia as a first generation student? And I think all the mentorship is important at the undergrad level. It becomes even more important at the or, you know, central to to education at the graduate level. But are there any misconceptions that you see first gen students sometimes making? Or and again, it wouldn't have to be first gen, just students generally making about mentors. Maybe it's about who would make a good mentor, or is it about what can be asked of a mentor? You know what that's supposed to look like. I mean, you've already named some really good ones. Is there anything else that you think about helpful?
Speaker 3:And then it turns out that they're actually not, that they weren't genuine about their you know offers of help and it's easy. So there are times one of my friends recently literally someone who's supposed to be advising on her project said, like a very passive, aggressive, like if you want feedback from me, you're gonna have to ask two months in advance, and it made them feel like a bad person for even asking for advice. And I was like, oh, it might be coming to realize that maybe this person isn't as helpful as they appeared to be and that they were making you feel like the bad person and also that they were maybe using this graduate student to just get a career advancement and have that on there without actually caring or investing. And there are people like that. So I don't know if that's so much of a tip, but because there's a certain expectation that you're helpful, that you're a good mentor, there may be people who put on a show of that and they don't follow through, who put on a show of that and don't like it. They don't follow through in cases like this, all of the other students really we were all like. You know, this is not your fault because this person generally felt really bad, like have I taken advantage of my professor and asked something like that I shouldn't have. And then you sometimes you can ask for reassurance, you can ask other people to read the email, you can like it.
Speaker 3:I think if you get an email like that or you get a response like that, which I have, like I once had a professor that one professor told me to talk to about my project and then for some reason, they met and then suddenly they were like never email me again, stop harassing me. Oh, my goodness, they had never said oh okay. So then me again, stop harassing me. When, my goodness, they had never said oh okay. So and then I asked the professor who's you know, leading the class and was like what's what went wrong there? And she's like no, it's fine, but this does happen.
Speaker 3:There are times when people who initially offer help or want to be involved in your work or research suddenly just completely change their tune. There they're gonna be people like that. Or you realize that you know someone isn't what they appear to be and you might feel bad about it. But talk to someone else, work through it process it, realize that it's not your fault, or maybe if you, if you did figure out, you know a new strategy or a different way of approaching someone, then then you can apply that. But there are gonna, they're gonna be, they're gonna be nasty people essentially, and just don't.
Speaker 2:The whole world is not pure and lovely like Rebecca wants them to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, being aware that things might or that people might not live up to their first impressions is so valuable. I know one of the tensions can sometimes be like do I want big name scholar who will? Whose name will be on my CV? If we're talking about like graduate school, like a dissertation director or something right, that can open a lot of doors if you have famous scholar's name on your CV. But they may or they may not care at all about mentoring, they may give you no help. It's not always that tension, but that can be the case and I think if someone finds himself in that situation then they might go. Well, I need the help, I need the guidance because I don't know what I'm doing here, but also I don't want to offend, risk offending big name scholar and there are ways you can kind of rework it so that maybe you keep big name scholar as the big name, but then developing other mentoring relationships with other people, I think with other faculty, can really help kind of round that out, Because you need more than one mentor.
Speaker 2:You never want to put all your eggs in one basket.
Speaker 1:No, no, no. And I love what you were just saying about talking with others in the program, like other students, and finding out what their experiences are, because I think it's so easy and I've seen this with a lot of first gen students and certainly was true for me too. You go into college with this idea like I just have to go to class and get good grades and that's it, and and and it's like no, there's way, you know, like those conversations you have with people outside of class are so important, and it's not just about going to class and getting the good grades, you know, it's about all those other things, and I think the mentors, you know, seeking out those mentors is part of it too.
Speaker 3:Actually that's a really good point, that that's perhaps one of the you don't always find good people to work with but unfortunately, like, one of the things I always hated was group assignments, because you know, until you have a good group and you know people who are actually going to show up for you, group assignments can really screw up your grades. You're dependent on people who don't do or who are coasting along and who just are mooching off other people's work. There are people like that, but I think if you're going to college college for the first time, figuring it out for yourself like for me I hadn't been in school since I was eight years old yeah, uh, appreciating, like the social connections and the cohort feeling of it, building those relationships, especially if you are moving away from home for college and you need to, like it's almost like make that calculation in your head and know that there are advantages to to building up your social. Uh, there's a theory social capital theory. Building social capital will never, will never be bad.
Speaker 1:Yes, so let me ask you this as students grow in their careers and move on, how can they pay forward the mentorship they've received? What are some things that you would like to see or that would be helpful, that might help address some of the challenges that prompted this Facebook post in the first place? Like what are some things you would like to see that would be helpful to other students coming along behind?
Speaker 3:Building up communication, because it's all about communicating what you know. So that friend of mine who received that kind of passive, aggressive email about, we were all like, hey, we can read each other's work. We don't need to wait for our professors to read our work. It's simply a matter of us, like we're all in different fields, you know, with different topics how well are we communicating? Or building up the skill of giving presentations to each other? Or one of the big ones is, if you sit together in a room and work on stuff, you probably can get a lot done like you do this, like 50 minutes writing, 10 minutes chit chat, like things like that. Organizing, you know, study groups and all that are a huge help in trying it out.
Speaker 3:The other thing I would say is that I started out educational theory. One of the things that has helped me the most and that also, like is one of the ways that I think about learning which is why I wrote that post is this thing called metacognition. It's like we're really reflective about how we learn, what works for us, how we thrive. I'm really interested in those questions. I feel like if we reflect on those questions, it's not navel-gazing, it's thinking deeply about our learning process or our experience and then, if we think deeply, we might be able to engage with others more and be able to share what we've learned, which is what you guys are doing in this podcast. I guess it's like you're really reflecting on your background and your life and your learning experiences and the more that you do that inner reflection thing, you're helping yourself, but it also helps other people to be able to share that.
Speaker 2:And just to kind of bounce off of what you just said, I think for those of us that grew up ACE, bce, cle, whatever it was oftentimes the assumption is that we're independent and that has often been the way we have learned.
Speaker 2:So I think for those of us who, the way we have learned, so I think for those of us who, and like I, did well that way, I did really good that way, which is probably why as many college classes I've had to take online, I still did okay, because I actually have to work hard to engage with others. Like that doesn't come naturally for me, especially when I'm learning Like I like to do it independently. So I think reflecting on it but then forcing yourself to branch out and to do it differently and to experience it differently is important, because I can easily learn things short term but my retention sucks and that again is a reflection, I think, of the whole independent thing or what it's done for me, because I can learn short term I am great with memorization but the long term it's when you talk about it, it's when you um conversations about it with other people. I think is where the long-term memory yeah, when it's meaningful, yeah, but.
Speaker 3:But you were trained like you had to survive in a world where learning wasn't meaningful and it was just churned out stuff. And then, right, if you retain it, what was the point? Because the next thing is going to another workbook where you have to memorize it, turn turn it out, forget it Like you were. You're surviving, so it's not like you're doing a bad thing.
Speaker 2:Oh right, right, right, but I think I think that's where, reflecting on how you learn and and what has worked and maybe not been quite so effective, I think is really important.
Speaker 3:I feel like, personally, I learn best when I'm mad about something. That's when it you know you're curious.
Speaker 2:You can do research like no one. I've ever met Rebecca Like seriously when you're engaged.
Speaker 1:When you're engaged, you're emotionally engaged, yes, when you're mad.
Speaker 2:Very motivated. But your attention to detail like I don't think if I was in education for the rest of my life, I could pay as much attention to detail as you do. Like I would become depressed if I'd have to spend that much attention to details. So I love it. I think it's an amazing gift and amazing talent and I love it when you get mad because you come up with amazing work and I just think it is so valuable and I am just like so grateful for the work you do.
Speaker 3:Aw, thank you.
Speaker 2:And I think you both, like I don or not, we're actually enrolled in the classroom. We kind of want to be, and I think sometimes and I have theories, but I think sometimes it's easy my running theory is that it's often the individuals who didn't quite feel accepted or included within their religious community who are the ones who tend to break out and get an education, and I think sometimes they then it's easy to see that education as a source of validity for them, which in turn they become gatekeepers, and I think it's so important that we don't do that to each other. My worthiness is not found in an education or lack thereof, and I have no business gatekeeping inside the classroom or outside the classroom. And I think what you posted on social media was so important because I saw it as a reminder to all of us. We have professors who do it, but we also have people inside our worlds who do it to us, and when you see it, I think it's okay to recognize it.
Speaker 1:Recognize the gatekeeping. Yeah, yeah, and I guess because I think the two of you have maybe seen more of this than I have, just because of your kind of connection to some of these communities what does the absence of gatekeeping look like and what you're describing? I guess that's kind of my word, that question that I keep coming back to what do you want to see? What would be the opposite of the gatekeeping? What is the thing that you are hoping to pay forward as a way of not gatekeeping?
Speaker 3:I was going to say Rebecca is a little bit like my barometer. I take Rebecca along and just see if people are gatekeeping, because I'm a little bit like, I'm a little you, you know, just a little bit like I don't pick up on these things as fast, I don't have that instinct for it as quickly marilyn marilyn does, and also I think that people think they can get away with a lot around you. Do you think so? Like people think, oh, this is just someone I can. I can, like get a little bit of an ego trip by by being like mean to. I don't think it's conscious, but that happens and it's really like when we reflect on it, when we discuss it, and it's really irritating you know what I mean?
Speaker 2:yeah, but say just a little bit more. So why do you think that people think they can do that to me, like just like, say a little bit more.
Speaker 3:I mean, it's the whole thing with the like, like, if someone comes in from the outside, you don't have a place in this Mennonite system, the caste system, so I don't, I don't fit in anywhere. People are often very trying to find. Like you know, there's this one person that I was telling you the story about, who looked at me and looked me up and down, like who your parents and I said I moved a few years ago and the the clock was not, like the wheels were not turning, like what, where do I put you in this? Yeah, maybe it's because you already are in the culture. There's already like an existing caste system, and sometimes it's just that people are looking for anybody. They can, I think so get a power trip from like. It's not that, it's not that you attract this. They're looking actively, looking to have a terms. Like you know, I have a master's degree or in academia.
Speaker 3:You know this is how we talk I know exactly what you're referring to I think, yeah, I honestly think they would do it to anybody that they could try to do it to.
Speaker 2:To the whole thing of gatekeeping, I think that I do think I have an allergic reaction to it, for whatever reason, and I think sometimes my reaction to it is my knee jerk reaction to like. Sometimes I'm not sure if I'm totally aware of it. I'm learning to pay attention to it, but I'm not sure that I always do. Sometimes I do think it's an attempt for me or an invitation to play the game, and I'm starting to think about that a little bit more because I never before would have necessarily thought about it as an invitation. But I do think sometimes it is that about it as an invitation. But I do think sometimes it is that Sometimes I think it has been a bid for power and a bid to put me in my place, but I haven't necessarily advertised a lot that I'm in school and so I think sometimes people aren't even necessarily aware of it.
Speaker 3:One of the thoughts I have is that, like, like, academia is not going to solve issues of being like, feeling and experiencing being marginalized in a culture and being silenced and not having an identity. Like, for example, you know, not being somebody in the culture, but academic life isn't going to solve that need. Therapy is a very good option Because if you haven't dealt with some of these issues, it's going to be part, like, it's going to follow you into a career and that's why maybe people who have felt trampled on want to have that feeling of having an identity and having worth.
Speaker 2:Being validated? Yeah, being validated.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but it's not healthy and that's that's not going to help you help other people, which, again, it's not going to help you be a good academic or successful person in most careers, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And so the people I admire most and this is what I see in both of you and I so admire it is this constant sense of curiosity. Truly, the best gift I think we can give ourselves is the gift of curiosity about the world around us, about other people. And so, instead of showing up to conversations with, well, I have a doctorate, or I have this or I have that, and so I let me educate you, you both have shown up with curiosity, and curiosity is at the top of conversations. Not, I'm the expert, and I hope that I can show up that way too. Hope that I can show up that way too, and you do, you do.
Speaker 1:But here's the thing Maybe this is this is easy for me to ask, this is easy for me to say or to suggest. Let's put that way. Maybe this and maybe this is my own baggage, but to me, I see someone you know waving their credentials as a flag or the. To me that is, that is an expression of real insecurity. To me, I see someone whose self-worth is based on being the best person in the room and it's more about proving to whoever is around that they are the, they are the smartest, they are the best, they are the least, they have the least fault, and it's about this need they have, as they go through the world, to reinforce that to whoever they come across, to make sure everybody thinks of them, because that is the only way that that is how they think that they are valid and worthy of love and respect is because they are so smart and so good. I don't know, does that make any sense?
Speaker 3:or or the kind of sense of like exclusive knowledge, like I talked about when someone's trying to drive your car. And since they have the right doctrine, they have the right, they have everything right, you?
Speaker 3:have to just follow what they say, not use your own brain, use their like. Let them do the thinking for you. Well, actually it kind of ties back to the fact that early Anabaptism was this movement that was very peasant-centric. What was happening was, the Reformation was largely a movement among academics, who then worked together with the nobles, and then they reformed the system, but it was still very much like everyone else is left outside of any of the decision making process. The, I mean, I do appreciate, like I do like the fact that when I go to any kind of and about this midnight setting, I don't talk about having an education. That's not what I introduce myself with. It's almost something that you, you, you don't go in waving. I appreciate that.
Speaker 3:I think there's a lot of downsides to that in the culture, but there are some. I like the fundamental idea behind it, which was initially according to Stuart Murray's dissertation and also some later books that he's published, like the Naked Anabaptist, which I haven't read. I read the thesis Initially. It was just like anybody, including women, including people who had never been to school they could get together and read the bible and then discuss it and let the holy spirit have be the authority in every person there. It was meant to be an anti-elitist way of approaching faith and the bible, uh, which you know, and and uh, even the people who, like michael settler, he wrote the slight cycling confession.
Speaker 3:Yeah, at least I can't pronounce. Yeah, that's okay, it's, it's german, he. He was one of the authors we believe, right, he? When they interviewed him for his trial, he said wait a second, I'm not going to respond to you yet. I want to ask my brothers and sisters and sisters what they think, and then I will come back to you. On these doctrinal questions, there's a strong sense of far more camaraderie, humility yes, just yeah.
Speaker 1:Right and I think when there is that sense that every person is valid and is worthy of dignity and respect, aside from their accomplishments, you can have that kind of sense. But as soon as status, whatever that is based on, whether that's based on family, bloodline or on an education or on wealth or whatever that's when you lose that right and it's a little bit like we push back against this idea that it doesn't really matter what the man has done for the last 20 years.
Speaker 2:When he goes to a job interview, that's great. Whatever he was doing, that's a-. Oh, it's relevant, yeah, but then when a stay-at-home mom shows up, she's worth $12 an hour.
Speaker 1:Her experience isn't relevant. Yeah, right.
Speaker 2:And I think we easily do that to people who, for whatever reason, don't have a formal education.
Speaker 2:I think it's easy to assume that how can they know, how can they be an expert on anything, when in fact sometimes those without a formal education are some of the smartest people you will run into. They might not have the right vocabulary, they might not even know about theories that are out there that affirm what they've been thinking, but yet they're there, they're thinking it, they're creative thinkers, and I think that whole gatekeeping is such a. I think that's why Anabaptists tend not to trust people that get an education that's very valid, and so those of us from the Anabaptists tend not to trust people that get an education that's very valid. And so those of us from the Anabaptist background who are getting an education had better darn well treat it with care and with compassion and with humility that I should be valued because I now finally have this, but close the gate or make those who haven't received it yet feel stupid, like that's just cruel, I mean, and that's not something I want to be with.
Speaker 2:And so I think when I receive an invitation to play that game, I'm just like I'm too old for that nonsense. I can't think of one reason I would show up. It feels like a pissing contest in the wind. I have no, I have no. I don't understand why I'd show up to play that game with you so like the most in any career, though the playing field.
Speaker 3:For the most part, if it's a professional, well-paying career, the playing field is like an egotistic pissing contest. That's how most things are set up, whether it's politics, finance, academia. There is advantage to entering into those spaces with a different ethic, but also using those spaces, using the advantages that come from those spaces, to to open the door. I I think there is because, like I went to the american academy of religion in november, uh, that it was really helped. I wouldn't have known about this had not my dissertation chair given me all these tips and like told me like you know, go for this conference, that conference, go for those receptions. Like that was incredible, because that was amazing.
Speaker 3:That's opening it, or I didn't even know it's there. But when you go there you're going to deal with a lot of ego because when people find out you're just a graduate student, you're suddenly like in a different, like you know you're. You're a kid in a room with adults is what some people? But then you, you start to get to know the people, you know who to talk to you, you figure out who. Yeah, playing, you've you've been here before. Yeah, you play that game, because all careers are a game. But you also invite other people into that space. You can change the culture. But it doesn't mean that we all just stay at the lowest rungs and don't even try to enter into these spaces. I think we have a right to be in those spaces and sometimes we can benefit from and also help others benefit from them.
Speaker 2:And I'm glad you made that point, Because I think that's so important, Because I think I would it would be easy for me to be like whatever, go play your own game and I'll just sit out here and do my own thing. We're getting into the crowd, like I see you doing, which I think is so amazing, and then inviting other people to join you. I've been invited to join in and I'm so grateful for that. And to bring us back to Naomi, your original question what do we wish we would see? It's just that invitations invitations to be part of the process and the experience, not necessarily because of what title I'm bringing, but because you see me as a person and because of who I am, because I'm me.
Speaker 3:I think it does make a difference. I just remembered something my history professor said. So she's like this granny, you know she's I've seen.
Speaker 3:Sometimes you see professors outside of work and you're like oh, this is a light fall lady and she said she was on a hiring committee for the chair of their department and she said you could tell who had hubris. And it was just. And she has someone who's really senior in the field who is deciding who gets this very big job. She said you could tell who has hubris and, like she's been around, you know to be a woman of this age, who's been in academia long enough, I think, who researches gender, obviously she has a sense of what's been going on in the field. And yeah, if you walk into a room and think you're entitled to everything, there are people who applied to be the director of our program who talked as if they already had the job while they were still applying. People read that for sure. So it's not going to help you get ahead either to have who is dripping off you.
Speaker 1:Exactly. I have just in recent weeks, seen this very thing play out and let me tell you it is so off putting I guess. I guess that's why I'm a little bit seeing it not not exactly as a toddler's temper tantrum, but you know, like it's a show in my mind, it's a show of immaturity. It's not someone I want to do business with. Yeah, the hubris.
Speaker 2:Well, two things. Hubris is not a word that I would have used very often, and I've encountered it like six times in the last week, and I just think it's so funny, so I'm going to have to start adding it to my vocabulary now.
Speaker 1:I was not using it in relation to the situation I was talking about just now, but I've heard it.
Speaker 2:I've heard it like six times, I think, in the last week or two, which is hilarious. I think where it's damaging is the Anabaptist, amish, mennonite communities, whatever tend to have a little bit of a fear about education. So if you have someone who leaves and gets education and returns with hubris dripping off of them, it simply validifies the argument and the fear, making it more difficult for those who want to get an education. It just makes it more difficult.
Speaker 3:Most. What you're saying kind of makes me think of the fact that most ideas, most theories are at their essence really really simple common sense things. They just it just academia almost, is just a different language, a different lingo, but these are really interesting ideas that anybody can engage with. Most theories in my field at least, humanities are. And one thing that does happen is, I see, like I'm familiar, say with this is going to be very on the nose, but here we go.
Speaker 3:I'm familiar with early church scholarship and there are people who go into Anabaptist circles, who have no background in early church scholarship, who have suddenly the authority to dictate so much of people's lives this is in recent years and what is true and what is doctrinal, based on their very, very limited expertise. But you can't argue with them because they will use their education and their arguments to uh bowl you over, to steamroll people with their knowledge of such and such writings by tertullian or origin or whatever. And it irritates me because that's not. They're not even from these fields. They don't engage in the way that scholars do. There's so much that's lacking. But they are the experts in the room and they can weaponize this so-called expertise against Anabaptist communities especially who do not have that prior knowledge of this particular field of scholarship and in the same breath.
Speaker 2:They can almost suggest that because you're Amish, mennonite, whatever, you shouldn't have an education. But because you don't have an education, then let me educate you. They're trying to drive the car.
Speaker 1:Yes, they're trying to drive the car and, in doing that, revealing their ignorance, revealing how much they don't know.
Speaker 2:But then they again convince people that an education is bad, because this is how educated people show up.
Speaker 1:Making it harder Reinforce the stereotype.
Speaker 2:Making it harder for those who desperately want an education. They make it just more difficult for those people to receive it, and I just think those of us from those communities who are fortunate enough to receive an education should be, of all people, the most humble, the most kind, the most compassionate, generous. We should generous and we should never try to get in other people's driver's seats. We should be empowering them to get into their own seat instead of telling them you have bad doctrine, you are uneducated, you have whatever it is the amount of things people can think they can get away with saying, like about, say, amish or mennonite people, especially in the amish.
Speaker 3:they'll be like, oh well, you know they're amish, they don't know the bible, or they're mennonite, they don't have good doctrine. It's just that you know, like those articles that Jeanette Harder publishes, like you have to talk to an Amish woman, like she has an intellectual disability, yeah, it just like.
Speaker 2:it just makes me want to gag, or because so many Amish Mennonite women have experienced sexual abuse they can't know Jesus. Well, I've heard that.
Speaker 3:I've heard that too I mean it's, it's.
Speaker 2:it makes me sad because I, I am more than ever. I understand why there is this, this distrust of education within the communities. Like I'm understanding it, but I'm also going to fight against it, because I, I, I will always be fighting for education. But for the love, oh my goodness, don't prove people right when you actually receive your education. Like, don't prove that narrative right. Well, yeah, yeah, that looks important.
Speaker 1:Well, no, I'm just trying to get my head around. I feel my blood sugar kind of dropping and my brain cells are slowing down, starting to slow down, but it's just I hear what you're saying about you know someone getting maybe somebody reading a David Bersow book or something like that. You know, like a I didn't say it out- loud the name, but let's go with it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, somebody reading a David Bersow book or something like that.
Speaker 1:you know like a self-published books about the early church right. And so authoritatively, so authoritatively.
Speaker 1:And confidently and confidently and I raised my hand. As someone who, in my early years, read that and was you know, I was quite taken in by it. So I guess, yeah, I'm just one I don't have anything really profound to say other than to just affirm what you're saying. That like having a little bit, a little bit of knowledge, just enough to advance an agenda, but not enough to actually have an understanding of what it is you're talking about, is just, I mean, and it's no longer about education, it's about driving the car, it's about weaponizing what little information you have and distorting it. And, yeah, that's hugely problematic.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think a true scholar knows that the more you know, or the more you learn, the less you know. Yeah, there is so much to learn. There is so much about any subject, there is so much to learn.
Speaker 1:We were saying early on. Rebecca Mooney, you mentioned that the more advanced you get, the more specific your area of research is, and it would seem logical that the more I specialize into my very niche area of research, the more I'd recognize oh, everybody else has their own little niches, you know, and it would recognize the limits of my little niche and have a new respect for all. There is to know that I don't know, and maybe that's my naivete that I think that should be the response, but to me it's pretty obviously a power grab.
Speaker 3:If someone loses that sense of curiosity and decides they know now and they can speak with finality and authority on something, is that there was, I think, an engineering professor here at Virginia Tech who decided that he was going to be a creationist and write extensively and this was decades ago some of the first volumes of creation science, while absolutely having no knowledge of biology. This is an engineer. Yes, to dictate like, very like. You know how engineering works according to principles. The principles and the formulas then become so this formulate thinking and fundamentalism go hand in hand and they came together in this particular instance. But there's something to look out for, I guess in any field humanities, political science, people that we know what fundamentalism is because we've lived it, we've known like the formulaic thinking, the absolute Rigidity. There'll be people who do Marxist research, who are fundamentalists and you're like oh wow, they're just basically like Fundy Baptist, just about their theory. But there's an agenda, that there's often an agenda and like a desire to make the world work a certain way and shoehorn the world into this reality. This is why I personally really liked the culture and I'm writing an article about the ASAS symposium this year from what I've experienced because there was a lot of humility in the very plain groups that came. Everybody there is trying to figure out what to do with this and there's a sense of we don't have all the answers.
Speaker 3:The groups that believe that they have all the answers and know everything and know how the world works and have an agenda and whatever, and they show up to educate. They weren't there. And if they were there, they didn't stay very long. There is a difference.
Speaker 3:So I actually was going to write an article, which I'll probably put in my Medium blog, about the fact that I feel these kingdom Christian slash charity groups are dangerous in the sense of there's a worldview and these formulas have to work, or else and if they, if they deal with abuse, it usually is to a prove how other groups are wrong and their group is better, or b get it out of the way so they can get around along with a real project, whereas people who actually take abuse, spiritual abuse, violence in the church seriously are not those who are going to have every piece of their theological jigsaw and cultural pride intact, like there's a strong sense of humility, literally.
Speaker 3:I think it was somebody from the Midwestern church who responded to my workshop and was like oh, you were critiquing these ideas largely in an evangelical context. I've I've actually think we mennonites believe the exact same things and we're teaching them and you should directly criticize mennonite culture more like I mean, that is such a open and humble and curious yeah, and I was like was like no, I didn't come here to tell you guys what you're all doing wrong either.
Speaker 3:I'm reflecting on these questions from my lived experience in these evangelical sources, like I didn't want to come in the room steamrolling telling you know, that's not, that wasn't the point. But we were able to connect to that and I thought that was just such an interesting comment to get. What a beautiful comment actually.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's very hopeful, encouraging, yeah, and open and non threatened.
Speaker 2:Well, so the rest of the world can get more of Rebecca Mui. I think you should tell us where we can find you.
Speaker 1:I know you're all over, all over the social media world, but and we'll put all these links, and we'll put all the links in the show note. Show notes too, if you know, if you miss anything. But yes, tell us, tell us, I don't often talk about education on.
Speaker 3:Most, like most of my stuff is about abuse, but I guess that's good stuff. It's part of the theme of this podcast. I can give you my Twitter X account and, I guess, the medium account. But just, I guess, be forewarned that, uh, most of these, most of the my research or interest in at this moment, is in spiritual abuse, which actually kind of overlaps.
Speaker 1:I think so, I think so. What is the name of your Medium?
Speaker 3:blog. I'll just give you the link, like it's usually just my name, like xcom slash, mui Rebecca and then Mediumcom slash. Let me just check for a second.
Speaker 1:Okay, and that spelling. While you do that, the spelling of your name is R-E-B-E-K-A-H-M-U-I.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's my Medium account too, Okay.
Speaker 1:Wow, this has been so good.
Speaker 2:I feel like we should do this, like you know, once a month. We need to do this more. If you want to hear more from my dear friend Mui, just tell us.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, I just miss talking to you. We miss each other when they're not here, I know, I know.
Speaker 1:And if she talks about Mrs Koblentz, it's not me, and there's a link at the top of the show notes. It says text us. You can send us a text directly from your phone. We'd love to hear from you. All right?
Speaker 2:Thanks so much, rebecca Mui and Rebecca, who may or may not be Rebecca these days, we don't know.
Speaker 1:And thank you listeners and we will catch you next time.
Speaker 2:Thank you for spending time with us today. The resources and materials we've mentioned are linked in the show notes and on Facebook at Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 1:What are your thoughts about college and recovery from high demand religion? We know you have your own questions and experiences and we want to talk about the topics that matter to you. Share them with us at uncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom. That's uncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.
Speaker 2:If you enjoyed today's show and found value in it, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast app. This helps others find the show While you're there. Subscribe to our podcast so you never miss an episode Until next time stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward.
