Uncovered: Life Beyond

48. From the Martyr's Mirror to Manifest Destiny: Have Anabaptists Kept the Headship Order but Lost the Two Kingdoms?

• Naomi and Rebecca • Episode 48

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In today’s episode, we explore the shifting beliefs within Anabaptism against the backdrop of growing Christian nationalism. We reflect on our own journeys, the influence of childhood literature, and the need for active compassion towards marginalized communities. 

• The history of the Anabaptist movement and its relevance today 
• Understanding the conflict between Anabaptist principles and contemporary nationalism 
• The role of literature in shaping beliefs and perspectives 
• The importance of addressing injustices faced by immigrants and marginalized groups 

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Speaker 1:

This is Rebecca and this is Naomi. We're 40-something moms and first cousins who know what it's like to veer off the path assigned to us.

Speaker 2:

We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college and career, as we questioned our faith traditions while exploring new identities and ways of seeing the world.

Speaker 1:

Without any maps for either of us to follow. We've had to figure things out as we go and appreciate that detours and dead ends are essential to the path Along the way, we've uncovered a few insights we want to share with fellow travelers.

Speaker 2:

We want to talk about the questions we didn't know who to ask and the options we didn't know we had.

Speaker 1:

So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking things up, we are here to cheer you on and assure you that the best is yet to come. Welcome to Uncovered Life Beyond. Hello everyone, welcome back to Uncovered Life Beyond. This is Naomi.

Speaker 2:

And this is Rebecca. So it's been a week. It has been a week, it has been a month, right.

Speaker 1:

It feels like five months, yeah, yeah, I don't know. I mean I go back and forth between just kind of feeling numb to all the insanity and then also feeling really, really angry at, well, lots of people.

Speaker 2:

Kind of like how in the world did we end up?

Speaker 1:

here, here, and I think one of the things that has had me scratching my head the most, especially in recent years, is how people who taught me historic Anabaptist doctrine and theology are now identifying with Christian nationalist figures.

Speaker 2:

And even the same people who shunned us for leaving.

Speaker 1:

Right, right, and it's like, when we removed the external markers of being plain, that was a greater betrayal than betraying the two kingdom concept that is central to Anabaptist beliefs and the Anabaptist tradition. Maybe we should talk a little bit about this, because I know that the Anabaptist history is something that, on one hand, we grew up around, many of us grew up around the martyr's mirror, but I don't know how much that knowledge went beyond just kind of a superficial we were persecuted, kind of message.

Speaker 2:

I think there was that and I also think recently I've been realizing we all pay attention in different ways and to different things and I wonder sometimes if those of us who paid attention to this type of thing assumed everyone else was too Right, right.

Speaker 1:

So today we want to try to make sense of this, and I'm sure we can't do that, we can't completely do that in the next 30-45 minutes, but maybe we can at least start a conversation and start trying to make sense of these things. Maybe it would be helpful to just set the stage with a little bit of history of who were the Anabaptists, where did they come from, what were they about? And this is from the Anabaptist Mennonite Network website and I'm not familiar with them beyond this website, but this tracks with my, this summary, this short history tracks with my knowledge of it, of the movement. It says that so Anabaptism emerged on the back of two very different attempts to bring transformation to church and society the Protestant Reformation, which called for reform in the church, and the Peasants' Movement, calling for reform in society, and this was back in the 16th century in Europe.

Speaker 1:

So Anabaptism emerged as these scattered communities of people seeking alternative strategies for reform, and the first radical step they took was to start rebaptizing believers. And these are people who had been baptized into the Catholic Church as infants. And what that did is it got them onto the roles that would eventually become the tax rolls, become the tax rolls, and so by taking baptism, the authority to baptize, by taking ownership of that, it was one way of stepping out of the system of taxes that was facilitated by the religious system at the time, and they also recognized that there was no hope for them to fight back against the authorities, and so they adopted this concept of non-resistance to violence, pacifism, and the idea was beliefs just they blew through Central Europe like wildfire and it was like the persecution and the martyrdom of Anabaptists was kind of. It offered a showcase of the brutality of the governments of the time and the religious order of the time.

Speaker 2:

And I think it's important to note so. In Europe at this time there was not a separation of church and state, so the Catholic church was also the government, and that was a huge part of the Anabaptist movement was the insistence of the separation of church and state. But that is also why it's incorporated in our Constitution.

Speaker 1:

Right, right, and this is what came to be known as the two kingdom theology. Right, and this idea that there you have civil authorities and then you have religious authorities, that there you have civil authorities and then you have religious authorities and the Anabaptists had a front row seat to seeing the disaster, the corruption, the devastation that happens when you combine church and state. And this, yeah, became foundational then in the US.

Speaker 2:

And I think I've had so many people confused when, on social media, I make comments as far as it doesn't matter what the fundamental religion is that we are trying to make in power. Whether it is Catholic, whether it is Islam, whether it is Christian, it doesn't matter, it does the same damage.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, and people get irate.

Speaker 2:

Exactly, people get irate. They're like are you comparing Christianity to Islam? No, what I am comparing is the damage that the power does Right.

Speaker 1:

Right To everyone, the people wielding the power and the people being harmed by it Right. Here's a quote from one of the early Anabaptists back hundreds of years ago, heinrich Bollinger, and this is quoted. He's quoted in the Anabaptist division and he's explaining the distinction between the two kingdoms, and he says the secular kingdom should be separated from the church, and no secular ruler should exercise authority in the church. The Lord has commanded simply to preach the gospel, not to compel anyone by force to accept it. The true church of Christ has the characteristic that it suffers and endures persecution, but does not inflict persecution upon anyone, and so this persecution was a major factor in bringing Anabaptists now as Amish and Mennonites to the US. I think the first ones came over maybe in the 1700s.

Speaker 2:

I think it was the early 1700s when they started coming from what I could.

Speaker 1:

And then there were multiple waves that came after that.

Speaker 2:

So I mean, when you think about it, anabaptists have just been in America for 300 years. Right, am I doing wrong?

Speaker 1:

math, yeah, something like that. Yeah or less.

Speaker 2:

And we strut around like we own the country, Like settle down people.

Speaker 1:

Well, we've been given I say we because I identify with it culturally we're given so many passes along the way. We were given we could exercise the belief of non-resistance to war right. So there were young men could be conscientious objectors and do alternative service instead of serving in the military. They were able to kind of live in their enclaves I mean in Europe it had been a matter of survival to kind of stick really close together in rural areas. But over here it was accommodated and it has been accommodated for hundreds of years. And then even in 1972, wisconsin versus Yoder made it legal for them to prevent their children from having the culture to exercise control over their children that parents in the mainstream couldn't or didn't have.

Speaker 2:

And this was also while we still had Indian boarding schools.

Speaker 1:

Right. So Native American kids were being taken from their families, while Amish and Mennonites were allowed to not only keep their children but then also deny them education. So then eventually we move into the Cold War. That was the time period after World War II when the US and the USSR were the two major world powers, and they were. So.

Speaker 1:

There wasn't an ongoing war, but there was kind of a. They were battling for control of the rest of the world, and they did that through all kinds of different things. I mean you have the war in Vietnam was a manifestation of that to some degree, but then also how foreign aid was dispersed as a way to exert control over other countries. Aid was dispersed as a way to exert control over other countries. But the major thing is that we were all terrified. I say we were all. Many people were terrified and certain that any moment the USSR was going to invade the US and I know even children in schools would have drills, air drills, where they would practice climbing under their desks just in case there would be a threat of attack. And this is something that was a real part of my childhood. Right, it was a real part.

Speaker 2:

My dad would forever go on about the floors of the Iron Curtain.

Speaker 2:

Yes, ever go on about the horrors of the Iron Curtain, and this is where CAM, christian Aid Ministries, got their start. I knew them as Christian Aid for Romania and, let's be clear, they have not always been on the up and up, but this was where they got their start and they would go around to churches to garnish support, telling these horrible stories about what was happening in Russia, and we were just minutes away. Some of those darker things came out after I was no longer really tracking there. I remember hearing whispers even as a kid whispers about affairs and inappropriateness.

Speaker 1:

No no, no, unbelievable. Yeah, but I spent my childhood reading their newsletters, yeah.

Speaker 1:

And all the stories of people starving in Eastern Europe because of the communists, fear of communism which was associated ACE, bce, the curriculum that was huge, yes, that we had in school in our Amish Mennonite school. John Piper, john MacArthur, all these guys have had a huge influence on a lot of these communities. No-transcript, which is ironic because even at the same time, some of these communities are the ones who are also doubling down on the external markers, right, like plain clothing and all that. So it's like what they connected on was this persecution complex and this fear of the outside world that the emerging religious right and all these evangelical voices offered. Right and all these evangelical voices offered, but by coming for that. They came for that, but then they stayed for the authoritarianism and the Christian nationalism.

Speaker 1:

And I think we see this in many different ways, but some of those ways are this sense that might makes right, this really buy into war metaphors, this black and white thinking about you know you're, either you know you have the conservative Americans who love this black and white thinking about you know you're, either you know you have the conservative Americans who love America and then the liberals who are maybe not even quite human. And one way to think of it is that these influences, these evangelical influences, were like a Trojan horse that stole their children away from their historic faith through the very avenues they were using to control their children's opportunities. And what I'm thinking here is like of the Christian schools that were using Baptist curricula, which is very patriotic, and all these other voices as well who are very nationalistic. And so, at the very time that they kept their children out of public schools and in their own schools, then turn around and gave them this Christian, very patriotic curriculum, that curriculum ends up being the thing that pulls their kids away from the historic faith.

Speaker 2:

That makes sense, and I think it's also important to point out, like I think that's what made Dobson so effective. You have now parents who are afraid, and so when people are afraid, they're looking for formulas to keep everybody safe. And Dobson Pearls, all these people were saying well, do it this way, Gothard. They're giving out formulas that if you do this and follow God's plan and follow God's will, you'll be able to keep your children. But underneath that was a plan, and I think we're seeing a lot of that today. Was this plan to create a Christian army to work their way into the government?

Speaker 1:

Right, right. And it's right, because it's not that the Anabaptists were necessarily seeking to control government, it's that they were drawn on board, they were brought into this larger Christian nationalist effort to control the government.

Speaker 2:

I think our parents, to a point, came to that place from a very well-intended place, Sincere yeah for sure, they had reasons to be afraid. They were familiar with these stories. They had reasons to be afraid, they were familiar with these stories. And so, yeah, you give someone a formula, you give someone who's afraid a formula, and it's very easy to buy into that. And I so often think about it was a church pastor in this community who was being ostracized for being supportive of the LGBTQ community and I asked him how that's working for him and he just said you can't lead from fear. You cannot lead from fear. And I think about that so often and I think maybe that's a huge piece of what our parents possibly missed.

Speaker 1:

They were leading from fear, absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

And it's so sad to see what's happening today regarding immigration. I am so upset what's happening with immigration, but the church has come so far for protecting the abuse within their own pews and protecting their women and their kids in their own churches. How can we expect the church to protect immigrants or even care about immigrants? It feels like what they care about the most right now is power.

Speaker 1:

Right, right and that, if might, makes right, which is what the authority teachings boil down to. That's yeah, that tracks. That makes sense. So as we're hearing about what's happening with immigration on the news and the way that refugees and immigrants are being misrepresented, my mind keeps going to books that I read as a child, like I keep thinking about the Hiding Place and how the Ten Boom family hid Jews in their attic during World War II and then eventually ended up going to the camps themselves because of doing that, and I think about how this was praised when I was a kid. And yet what I'm hearing now sounds a whole lot more like Nazi rhetoric about Jews. That's what I'm hearing about immigrants. And I also think about another book, and I started making a list here and I'll mention a few of them and then maybe we can put the full list in our show notes or something like that.

Speaker 1:

But I thought of Henry's Red Sea by Barbara Schmucker. The story relates a dramatic and courageous story of refugees from Russia following World War II. This is a story of suspense American soldiers, russian officers and a midnight train ride in darkened boxcars. Here is danger, escape and deliverance an actual event that happened in Berlin in 1946. And this is about Mennonite refugees, who eventually wound up in South America, I think, but this was a staple in our background and it's published by Mennonite Publishers.

Speaker 2:

And these books would have all been both on our family bookshelf but also like in the school library. These were the books we were raised on.

Speaker 1:

Right, right. What are some books that you see in this list that ring a bell for you?

Speaker 2:

What are some books that you see in this list that ring a bell for you, a Lantern in the Window. Help Me Remember, help Me Forget Martyr's Mirror, pilgrim's Progress, martyr of the Catacombs God Knows my Size Tortured for Christ, like all these books. Living for Jesus Behind the Iron Curtain. Tortured for his faith, like all of them were. We were raised on this.

Speaker 1:

Right and I had to think of a book like the Family Nobody Wanted. And this is not a well-known book, but it was like this paperback book that was probably published I don't know at the 70s at the latest, but it was about a family who adopted about 12 children and I read it. I reread it as an adult and there was. I realized how I could become a bleeding heart liberal because of the way it talked about the racism that their family experienced and this is mid century and the assumptions that their family experienced. This is mid-century and the assumptions that were made about their children of different races, and they were adamantly anti-racist. But it made me aware of how pervasive this was.

Speaker 1:

And another book that I somehow got a hold of was Black Like Me, and this is a book that has been critiqued for very good reasons. But it's a story of a white journalist who goes into the South, I believe in the late 50s, and, through blackface, goes undercover to see what the black experience was and wrote about it. And I remember that being so transformative for me and understanding the extent of the racism that had existed. And I remember thinking, oh my goodness, this is just a couple like I was reading it in the 80s and thinking, oh, my goodness, this is just a couple decades ago and I had no idea. And yeah, help Me Remember, help Me Forget. Is also a story of someone coming out of slavery I believe it was, yeah and just hearing about the horrors and the tortures that was done. And these were all presented as we read them, identifying with the ones who were being persecuted, Identifying with them and also preparing ourselves to suffer with them.

Speaker 2:

Right right.

Speaker 1:

I mean I think about when you say that I remember this idea that would sometimes be mentioned, that like the importance of memorizing hymns, because if the day would come that we were in prison and had no Bible or hymn book, we could at least sing, and that would be an important thing to have.

Speaker 2:

Oh, do you know why I know so many Bible verses? I truly believed they were going to come and take our Bibles and I was going to have the Bible hidden in my heart so that when that happened in my heart, yeah, yeah, that when that happened, I could ensure that we still had scripture.

Speaker 1:

I was convinced of this. I was 12. Convinced of this. Right, oh yeah, oh yeah. And I think about a book in his steps, and a lot of these books were books that were part of our curriculum, that Christian Nationals curriculum. Right, right and His Steps by Charles Sheldon. It was a novel from way back when, but it popularized the question what would Jesus do? And we then were around when all those wristbands were so popular 20 years ago, but that was inspiring readers. The idea was to inspire readers to take literally the Sermon on the Mount, literally what would Jesus do? And when I think of Bishop Buddy's plea for mercy at the National Cathedral the other week on the day of the inauguration, I mean that's the kind of thing that they're talking about in this book.

Speaker 2:

Right, that we turn around and hate on and we criticize and we judge.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I'm seeing the same kind of voices that were teaching us that are now turning around and castigating her for saying the same thing, for teaching the same thing. As I think about these things, when we think about the history of American history as it relates to immigrants and refugees, I mean it's a very spotty history in terms of, you know, yes, there were lots of immigrants and refugees welcome, but then there were also many that were turned away. We would have seen ourselves, you know, in the context we were brought up and with the influences that we were given at the time. I mean I remember our church sponsoring several Romanian families who came over and were reestablishing lives in the US and this is after the fall of the USSR and so we were identifying with them and actively, like materially, supporting them. And so, while the US history has been very spotty because, like, for example, the US turned away ships of Jewish refugees during World War II, we had hundreds of years of forced labor camps in the American South, long before Auschwitz was even dreamed of.

Speaker 1:

And you know, the Geneva Conventions were something that nations agreed on after World War II and it was a set of procedures for refugees in the context of war or fleeing, you know, some kind of terrible situation. And today, people from Central America and South America and Mexico who follow those protocols are being called lawbreakers, and they're not. They are merely following the protocols that were set forward in the Geneva Convention that US signed on for, and so the US has this long history of brutality and violence toward the most vulnerable. And so, on one hand, I think we shouldn't be surprised that mainstream Americans support what this administration is doing to refugees and immigrants, but what disappoints me more than that is all those who claim to be faithful. Anabaptists have metaphorically parted ways with their Reformation era ancestors and the two kingdom theology, and I think back to the stories of Christians being martyred in the Colosseum in Roman times. It's like they've joined the jeering crowds at the Colosseum. Make it, make sense.

Speaker 2:

I don't think we can make it make sense and I keep trying to think of ways that we can just make a difference where we're at, from following Black authors to just going to some damn museums, like history museums will tell you these stories. Go to the Holocaust Museum.

Speaker 2:

Go to them now, while you can, before they're shuttered, yeah, and I've been very careful about following voices that have different perspectives than what I do. And I think something else that's so interesting is I've been often asked what organizations you can work with and the truth is I don't know. I don't know of organizations. What I do know is I don't think we go out necessarily searching for the immigrant who needs help. I think we go looking for the individual who needs help. I don't care if it's a single mom, I don't care if it is the parent who's overwhelmed because their child needs medical care. Maybe it is the immigrant. But there's so many ways we can actively get involved. And I told one friend go to the library, go to the community park, talk to people and, at the end of the day, always, always, always, remember that you're not the hero. The things these people have to go through is horrible. I mean they're in a new country running for their lives oftentimes.

Speaker 2:

I have friends that were 20 minutes from where the bombing was happening in Ukraine. This is some serious stuff they're dealing with. They don't know the language, but we expect them to understand the insurance process. We expect them to understand healthcare. We expect them to understand the school system. We can't follow ourselves. We can't Exactly, exactly. I have spent an entire day helping individuals set up utilities. How are they supposed to set up utilities for their home? There's nothing more exhausting than going to the doctor with them and translating and telling them what's going on. It's hard work, but these are the things I think we need to do. I think we need to actively be part of this. I'm not convinced that I can change the broader outside world. I don't think we can.

Speaker 1:

I don't know, not individually, not as individuals.

Speaker 2:

Right, but we can make a difference right in front of us.

Speaker 1:

I agree, and I think that something that can help us do that better is when we become aware of the elitism that so many of us have. Just, you know it's, it's the air we breathe and and I think we have been through a whole host of ways culture has taught us to look down on people who are having a hard time, where they taught us to blame them, blame the victims. The American culture has found so many ways to justify turning a blind eye to suffering, and I think what you're saying is so important because it's just just open your eyes. Open your eyes. There are needs everywhere and it's about whether we choose to see them, whether we open our eyes to see them, or if we want to stick within our comfortable elitist bubble.

Speaker 2:

Whether we want to stick in our elitist bubble, yes, but also I think there's a certain level of comfort that we like to hang on to, and I think we like to think that we are closer to being in the ranks of Elon Musk than we are to those who are struggling, when, in fact, many of us are one horrible illness away from needing help too.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely.

Speaker 2:

I think we are so unaware of how lucky we are sometimes and we like to say that we took God on as our business partner and that we have followed God's will. So here we are and I call bull crap. We just got damn lucky. And sure, some of us have made good decisions, but sometimes there aren't good decisions to make. There aren't good options available.

Speaker 1:

Exactly, exactly. Those of us who were able to make good decisions were fortunate to have good options. Exactly that we could choose. Exactly, mennonite. You know Anabaptist history. Here in the US we have a whole lot more in common with those who are fleeing persecution and suffering than those who are wealthy and comfortable and in control.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so did you know that the first Mennonites in Lancaster County were actually illegal immigrants?

Speaker 1:

Wow, and that was before the Geneva Protocols, so the Geneva Conventions, when those policies were set for people fleeing persecution.

Speaker 2:

So in 1712, ralph Thornsley, who I believe was a journalist in England, saw a number of palatins who would have been Swiss, germans and probably Mennonites waiting to come to America and he wrote they were the most poor and ragged creatures that he had ever beheld. Those could easily be our ancestors. Probably were some of ours.

Speaker 1:

And isn't it true that there were a lot of suspicions of plane groups back at the time?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, very A lot of suspicions from the obvious bringing in infectious diseases. In the 1700s there was a PA governor who was partially criticized for not sufficiently quarantining the disease. New arrivals In 1749, there was a huge PA election fraud scandal going on, convinced that the election had been rigged in favor of the immigrants that were coming.

Speaker 1:

Wow, and so that implicated the Amish and Mennonite or the Anabaptist groups, right right, actually, disease. Were they actually bringing diseases, or was it a fear? They were, they were, they were, they actually were, they actually were. Yeah, wow, wow. So we've been there.

Speaker 2:

And I wonder if the fact that we have been there makes us more afraid. You know, sometimes it does feel good to identify with the rich. Sometimes it does feel good to identify with the rich. Sometimes it does feel good to identify with power. It's a lot safer. Yeah, and it sucks being lower on the pecking order. It sucks. But I don't understand how we hold that fear and yet claim to be good God, fearing people, and respond so harshly to others. I don't understand how we get there Agreed and when we remove the head covering or whatever external item, it is that shaped us. But don't deconstruct this concept of the headship order or this hierarchical view of the world. I think we end up sliding right into Christian nationalism, which is where we find ourselves today.

Speaker 1:

Right, and where we see folks who were raised and maybe even taught us these Anabaptist beliefs about two kingdom, theology and non-resistance and all these things, and yet now we see them aligning more and more with this Christian nationalist view, which is totally contrary, totally contrary.

Speaker 2:

We have no business crapping on the Latina community or the Ukrainian people or whomever. We have no business doing that. If we believe that our history matters and if we believe that we are pro-life, what we are doing is so wrong. I don't know a better definition of sin. If that's what we're going to say. We believe you are literally harming other humans.

Speaker 1:

And calling it good, and that you're doing it in the name of God, for quote safety. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And so I think we like this prospect of being aligned with power, no longer being the underdog, and we're willing to make other people the underdogs so we can stay here.

Speaker 1:

Right, we can maintain our position. So our title today is A Martyr's Mirror to Manifest Destiny. And we know what the Martyr's Mirror is. It's that giant collection of stories of Christian martyrs, especially the Anabaptist martyrs at the time of the Reformation. Manifest Destiny is this American belief that westward expansion is something God wanted white people to do, wiping out entire Native American populations. And so we go from this non-resistant stance to this God and country stance of manifestesti. And our subtitle is how Anabaptists Kept the Headship Order but Lost the Two Kingdoms. And I think what is interesting is how that hierarchical view of the world can persist, whether someone is wearing the external markings of playing communities or not. And those external markings are minor compared to those ideas that we might hold onto about hierarchy and some people being better than others. And yet, and in that process, we're losing the very thing that made Anabaptist distinctive. Which leads us to the question without the external markings, do Anabaptists even know who we were and who we are?

Speaker 2:

Thank you for spending time with us today. The resources and materials we've mentioned are linked in the show notes and on Facebook at Uncovered Life Beyond.

Speaker 1:

What are your thoughts about college and recovery from high demand religion? We know you have your own questions and experiences and we want to talk about the topics that matter to you. Share them with us at uncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom. That's uncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.

Speaker 2:

If you enjoyed today's show and found value in it, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast app. This helps others find the show While you're there. Subscribe to our podcast so you never miss an episode.

Speaker 1:

Until next time stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward. Thank you.

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