Uncovered: Life Beyond
Join the conversations of Rebecca and Naomi, two ex-Amish Mennonite women who jumped the proverbial fence in their younger years and later experienced college as first-gen, non-traditional students. They discuss pursuing formal education while raising a family, navigating the hidden curriculum of academia, and other dimensions of reimagining a life beyond high-demand religion. Send your questions to uncoveredlifebeyond@gmail.com.
Uncovered: Life Beyond
47. When Passive-Aggressive is Your First Language: Moving on from Manipulation
Join us as we share recent personal wins and take on a listener question about dealing with passive-aggressive communication. We discuss reasons why direct communication can feel so difficult for some of us and how we can learn to do it anyway. As we look back on our own life experiences, we talk about the questions that stumped us and people who inspired us.
- What's so toxic about following the rules and trying to meet all the expectations others place on us? Isn't self-sacrifice the ultimate good?
- Are passivity and rudeness the only options for speaking our mind?
- How is assertiveness different from being bossy or high-maintenance?
- What if opting out of manipulation games actually makes relationships worse?
- What does it mean when your most earnest attempts at communication keep backfiring?
We don't have all the answers, but we share what we've learned along the way and what we want to leave behind--such as self-sabotaging advice that only serves those who wish to control us. The good news is that each of us have some degree of personal power and a responsibility to use it well.
Resources we mentioned (or should have):
- I Have ADHD with Kristin Carder
- Struggle Care with KC Davis
- Keeping Faith by Jodi Picoult
- Understanding Your Communication Style | UMatter
- Making New Friends After Leaving High Control Religion
- Beyond Belief: Finding a Place in the World After Leaving a High-control Religion — Questioning LDS
- Core Values Exercise
Thanks for listening! Connect with us via
- Facebook: Uncovered: Life Beyond
- Instagram: @uncoveredlifebeyond
- Email: uncoveredlifebeyond@gmail.com
- Website: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2171591
Subscribe (for free) to Uncovered: Life Beyond on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts so you'll never miss an episode!
What topics at the intersection of education, high-demand religion, career, parenting, and emotional intelligence are of interest to you? Help us plan future episodes by taking this quick listener survey. We appreciate your input very much!
This is.
Speaker 2:Rebecca, and this is Naomi. We're 40-something moms and first cousins who know what it's like to veer off the path assigned to us.
Speaker 1:We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college and career, as we questioned our faith traditions while exploring new identities and ways of seeing the world.
Speaker 2:Without any maps for either of us to follow. We've had to figure things out as we go and appreciate that detours and dead ends are essential to the path Along the way, we've uncovered a few insights we want to share with fellow travelers.
Speaker 1:We want to talk about the questions we didn't know who to ask and the options we didn't know we had.
Speaker 2:So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking things up, we are here to cheer you on and assure you that the best is yet to come. Welcome to Uncovered Life Beyond. Hello everyone, welcome back to Uncovered Life Beyond. This is Naomi and this is Rebecca.
Speaker 1:So here we are back for another week. What's been happening in your world, Naomi?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, so often I start a personal update by talking about how overwhelmed and, you know, flying by the seat of my pants and that, and that's been real, and I know it is true for a lot of other people too. I'm not sure what's going on right now, but I'm good with it. I'm not sure if it is because some medication changes recently or because I haven't had a ton of meetings at work like I have often had this time of year, or maybe it's the group coaching program that I'm that I joined here at the beginning of the year. I well, I was gonna say I have a lot of energy, but it's not that I can just function. I can just function. It's not like it doesn't take all this effort to like get me up, you know, out of my chair, get me up out of bed, I'm sleeping better. That's amazing, I don't know. I don't know, I don't know why Now still need to get to the gym. We're gonna hope that that will come, I hope.
Speaker 2:And this weekend I was able to get up and function Saturday morning and Barrett, my son, had a couple of friends over and they had the living room looking like three 12-year-old boys who were eating popcorn and wood. But I got up and made them waffles and then had them help me pick everything up and by noon I was like I'm going to start working on a macrame project and so I ended up. Well, I showed you a little bit ago.
Speaker 1:I ended up making this table runner.
Speaker 2:So I can't tell. I wish I could say why I'm. I'm feeling good right now and it's not just one day, it's several days here in a row. Oh, the other thing I didn't take my Adderall yesterday morning and I didn't even notice until last night that it was still there in my little organizer, and I can't imagine. Adderall is what helps me be functional. That's amazing, I know. So it's wonderful. So I guess all that to say you know what.
Speaker 1:You know what I feel like I need to point out. You've been spending a lot of time and I know this just paying attention to yourself, to what you're needing, and I think that is so huge. So what if it takes us five years to figure out what it is we need? It's a process of paying attention. It's a process of saying yes, saying no, saying I'm not sure, and you kind of learn, I think, in that process what your body needs, what you need emotionally, and I mean cheers. I think just the thing that you're sleeping is so huge. I love to sleep, hey, hey, I get angry if I can't sleep.
Speaker 2:So I have always been a sound sleeper, until I had babies, and then the babies were not sound sleepers.
Speaker 1:See things flipped for me. I was never a sound sleeper and like I would just lay in bed and think and think and think and think and think and couldn't sleep because I was thinking. And then when I had, when the twins were born, I reached the point where I was just so bloody tired Like I could sleep anytime, like you gave me an opportunity to sleep and I was out, and I wonder if that didn't kind of teach me how to sleep almost okay. Okay, in some weird way.
Speaker 2:yeah, um, yeah so no, I like to sleep.
Speaker 1:I like to sleep.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, it makes a world of difference, makes like thinking thinking instead of sleeping is just craziness.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's anxiety. Yeah, yeah, bless my 12 year old self.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think it's interesting too, nobody loves a life hack more than I do, and yet and yet I don't know what happened here Like I don't, it wasn't. I can't point to any one life hack, but more space for myself from those kinds of things. So I guess it's kind of a combination of things that I could control and things that I can't. The group coaching program I'm just going to give a shout out to this because I know there's a ton of life coaching programs out there and they run the gamut of when it comes to quality, but this one, this one is someone whose podcast I've been listening to for a long time and I've never. It's Kristen Carter. I have ADHD is the name of her podcast.
Speaker 2:I've been listening to her podcast for years and always find her work really helpful, very compassion oriented, and I think that has helped reduce anxiety just by helping me reframe things. I had always stopped short of buying her program because it was out of my budget and then she had a special at the beginning of the year and I think that's part of it, you know. And so it's like it's this combination of things that you, that I could and couldn't control, and I don't know. I just want to say I'm. It's awesome to feel like you can function without dragging a bag of you know 50 pound bag of potatoes with you. And to anyone out there who is feeling like that, know that you are not lazy. There's nothing wrong with you. There's a reason. Your body needs something. It's not getting you need something. This is not a moral failing on your part. It's just amazing what can happen when we approach things with self-compassion. What can happen when we approach things with self-compassion rather than guilt and shame and being mean to ourselves.
Speaker 1:You know, I think that's such an important point. I mean, no one talks more about being hot, shafiq and not lazy and getting stuff done. That's important in our culture, in the Amish Mennonite culture and I know a few years ago I read an article about there's no such thing as laziness. And I remember being so impressed the way it reframed things, and it also made me think about the ways sometimes we're busy for the sake of being busy because we don't want to be lazy.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh, we don't want to be labeled lazy. We don't want others to think we're lazy because we know that's not a good thing, that's a bad thing, that's a bad thing to be, that's a serious that's a serious, that's an offense, social, yeah, so good for you, good for you.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you. There's another podcast that is very much along these lines as well Struggle Care, and I'm blanking on her name, but if you, if you Google Struggle Care, she's the one who wrote the book how to Keep House Fall Drowning, and that's that's really good. Good, too, very much along the same lines again the, the person who is feeling guilty for not being hot. Shabby enough it it is.
Speaker 1:It's, it's the antidote for that yeah yeah, yeah so and it's huge, it's so important yeah, and I'll put these.
Speaker 2:I'll put these links um in the show notes, if anyone is interested. Who knew that being kind to yourself is going to be so much more productive than being mean to yourself?
Speaker 1:Yep, and it's like being your own best friend and advocating for yourself is so important and certainly something I wish I would have figured out younger.
Speaker 2:Yes, snap snap out younger, yes, snap, snap, snap, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And it's everything we were taught not to do Exactly.
Speaker 2:Which we're going to get into today Exactly. But tell me about you. How has the semester going? How's life on your end?
Speaker 1:Good have you? Guys had just a motherload of snow.
Speaker 2:No, we missed that. That went south of us, but we've had really cold temperatures.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's been bloody cold here, but snow. I don't remember having this much snow on the ground for this long in years.
Speaker 1:I bet we have had snow on the ground covered. I mean it feels like two weeks I don't think I'm exaggerating two weeks. We have had so many snow days from like school snow days and yeah, just just cold, and it's kind of weird. Like it kind of changes. Like I almost look out the window and I'm still surprised to see snow. And there's snow still there and, oddly enough, the snow makes everything look brighter. So even gray skies don't feel quite as gray it's weird.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So yeah, it's been bloody cold. Not huge fan of it, but still I have been worried because we've had increasingly less snow the past several winters.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which always concerned me, because then I feel like we have drier summers, which has its own concerns. But yeah, I'm doing good. I have two classes this semester, my final semester, woohoo, you know right, both of them are interesting. The one's more interesting than the other. One is, I think, the New Ventures. One is going to be good for me, but it's detailed and I don't like details.
Speaker 2:Is that the one where you're writing a business plan? Yeah, yeah, can't wait to see how that turns out, because I love the project you're working on.
Speaker 1:And I think it's going to be good. I think it's going to be good, like I think it's going to be good for me to sit down and do it. And then the other one is rhetoric of God, which is quite interesting actually. Yeah. Yeah, you know if I can understand why people study philosophy? It's interesting and there's so many connections like human nature, like we think we're so unique and developed and we're really not.
Speaker 2:So rhetoric of God, is it looking at a particular religion or is it looking across religions Across?
Speaker 1:religions. Okay, I think we're going to be studying all the major religions and then quite a bit of philosophy, okay, and kind of how language is used. Okay, and then quite a bit of philosophy, okay, and kind of how language is used. Okay, yeah, that's what I was wondering, yeah, how language is used to describe and how language is used to take power. Oh, that sounds really interesting. So yeah, it's been really interesting really interesting.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it's been. It's been really interesting. That's great. That's great. I'm so glad um that you've got a quote-unquote fun class yeah, yeah, you've got, you've got classes you um are personally invested in in. Yeah, to finish it up, that's great and it feels weird.
Speaker 1:Like it feels weird to be like this is the final semester, like this, is it like that? That that feels strangely weird. Yeah, and I think I'm still processing what that means. Like right, yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, you know what we should. Um, if you're up for it, sometime, do a podcast talking about what comes after.
Speaker 1:You know, like kind of are you gonna tell me I'm gonna have to grow up then get?
Speaker 2:an adult job no, no, but it might be fun to kind of talk about what are some of the, what are some of the things you can do or might want to think about in midlife and and yeah, it may be career related or or maybe something else. Um, you know, but now what, the now what? I guess Right, I mean because I think there's a lot of possibilities and sometimes we just need a place to, or the space to, think about them and imagine and dream.
Speaker 1:And you know, I'm finding there's a fine line between doing the right next thing and just trusting doors to open for you, and I think that's important. But also, if you don't know what to do, someone else is going to be happy to tell you what to do.
Speaker 2:Very true.
Speaker 1:I love that and I think there's a real fine line there, yes, and I'm in a position where I don't necessarily have to worry about what I'm going to do Right, which I mean.
Speaker 2:I know that's a place of privilege, it's a place of privilege, but that doesn't mean it opens up any less valuable doors. Like that means there are doors that are available to you that could make a huge difference in, well, not just your life, but others' lives too. Like I think there's a lot there to talk about. That is really exciting.
Speaker 1:And I do think, like I've been surprised at how much I've been wrestling with the fear, and maybe grief, of how old I am when I'm finishing, and I'm not sure if I haven't fully dealt with it I probably haven't because I think I'm kind of sitting in it, but I think there's something there and I keep thinking about what it could be like if I was even 10 years younger. However, then I swing back to the thing of you know. You know, no matter what age you are, you're going to be this age, whether you would have started college or not. So good for you for starting college. You're here, you're done, you know whatever, but I don't think getting into quote, the professional world, working for someone else, is going to be beneficial to me, Like I don't think people for the most part are going to value my education this late in life and I think I need to figure out how to make it work for me Right.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't think the job market values the experience that you do bring, and you and everybody else who is in a similar situation. You, you have not been doing nothing. You know like right, right, right, you have, but they're skills that are not recognized and and are not.
Speaker 1:That's society's loss stay at home moms, moms without education, women without education, whatever they are the people who show up and are responsible workers and they do all kinds of stuff for a little bit of pay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do think that, knowing you and knowing your capacity to find, I was gonna say find projects. Yeah, I mean like you have, you have a way you. You are interested in lots of things, lots of people, and so I think leaning into the privilege of not needing to go for a 40 hour a week, career oriented job is opens a lot of doors that I'm frankly jealous of, I envy you, so anyway, we can have a conversation about this.
Speaker 1:The other thing that I think is huge, though, that I've been thinking a lot about, is it's college that has taught me how to advocate for myself, and it's just interesting that I'm here and I am more than willing to be like yeah, no, I'm not going to do that. Yeah, no, no, that's not, that's not right. No, we're not going to do that. Yeah, and it's such a fascinating place to be at. Like I wish I would have had that vocabulary when I was 30. Tell me about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had college and I was still, and I was still.
Speaker 2:Not get mad, not be resentful, not be you know, yeah, but just be like, yeah, no, we're not going to do that what you're describing is empowerment, right, Because we that those big emotions come from feeling powerless and feeling like there's nothing we can do and the feeling that injustice of it and the kind of desperation to get out of that place is where all that emotion comes from. And when you feel empowered and I was listening to somebody this week who was saying, who was making the distinction between it's one thing to have choices, it's another thing to feel empowered to pursue what you want to do and, yeah, when you feel empowered, those big emotions aren't necessary because you can just do what you need to do yeah, Well and like, in some ways, I think some of the options are still the same.
Speaker 1:Some of the expectations that are thrown your way are still the same. People might still wish to kind of I don't know, take advantage of you or get as much as they can from you, and just, I don't know the ability to be like I don't think we're going to do that. Yeah, it's great, that's awesome, it's kind of a really cool place to be. And I will also say back to your thing of choices, I think we'd like to talk about people who quote make good choices and the power of making those choices. Sometimes there aren't good choices to make, absolutely Sometimes there just aren't good choices available, and I will forever hold space for that. And if you find yourself in that position, feeling that way it is real this week is like yes, there are choices.
Speaker 2:And sometimes they just all suck. Sometimes they just all suck, yeah, and it's like this mix of what we get to choose and what we don't, and we're just doing the best we can with what we've got.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And that is not a moral failing, that's life. Yeah, exactly so. Shall is not a moral failing, that's life. Yeah, exactly so. Shall we get into our topic today? Yeah, why don't we. So our episode today was prompted by a comment online that a listener left, and we thought it was a great extension of what we've been talking about before and a really important topic to discuss. So I'll read Sonia's comment.
Speaker 2:When I left my church, I slowly started to realize that my friends were all just like my dysfunctional family, manipulative. My therapist told me that I gravitated to people like that because it was familiar. When I started to really look at my friends, I realized they were not really good friends. It took some time for me to develop healthy relationships, healthy friendships, but I dropped most of my old friends and have much better friends now, and what I've noticed is the old ones didn't even try to keep me, they just let me go. Maybe you could do a podcast on this topic. I think a lot of people stay in unhealthy friendships because they can.
Speaker 2:Thank you, sonia, for this really insightful comment and question. And I don't think. Well, I know we don't have all the answers to this, but we can certainly relate to this dynamic, this experience, and are more than happy to have a conversation about it. Start a conversation about it Because I think this is a familiar reality for many of us who leave Amish, mennonite or conservative Anabaptist traditions, as well as those who leave other kinds of high demand groups. I think this is an experience that many of us have had.
Speaker 1:Right and these groups tend to be tight knit. They give us a social experience. They're often our entire social world and you know, isn't this kind of some of the attraction to even cults Like? It gives you your identity, it gives you the rules and you don't have to make a lot of decisions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it gives you a solution, gives you a formula, right.
Speaker 1:And then, of course, we're kind of indoctrinated to think that outsiders are the ones that are suspicious and often ill-intended, and so it just kind of solidifies our loyalty to the group. And then when all of a sudden we leave that group, it's like what are we supposed to do? Because up until now we were not trustful of outsiders.
Speaker 2:Right. I remember being at a point in my life when I had left a high demand group and I was talking with a counselor about the difficulty of building a new social life and I was learning about spiritual abuse. I was learning and this is, of course, before deconstruction was a commonly used word but I was learning about these cult-like characteristics that are common in many churches and I was kind of freaking out because I was seeing spiritual abuse behind every bush and yet at the same time, I didn't know where to socialize.
Speaker 2:I didn't know how to socialize outside of a churchy context and where I was working was a very churchy context. I remember the counselor said well, you know, just go to a bar, there'll be plenty of people who will be willing to show you around. And he was kind of playing a devil's advocate because he was a Christian counselor and he wasn't actually suggesting that. But I was like I don't, I wouldn't know the first thing about like going to a bar, like I mean, that was something we were indoctrinated to fear, like it's, like that would not have occurred to me and was not remotely appealing. And I was like, yeah, I don't know, like that's like a language that I don't speak, and I just remember being in that place and feeling alone.
Speaker 1:It's true, Naomi. I was 30 and someone suggested I go to a bar for something and I was like, and hasn't been to a bar yet plenty of us, and true that it's not that big a deal it is, though yeah, it is we'd feel it.
Speaker 2:Many of us would feel as out of place, or would have felt as out of place as someone who, you know, is going to church for the first time, right, right, you know, and and I think one of the things that makes the development of those new social networks, new friendships, new connections, is that we've been enculturated into what often comes out as a passive, aggressive style of communication, and I think this is what Sonia's comment was getting at that when that passive, aggressive style of communication assumes, you know, because you don't have those shared experiences and so you have to speak more directly.
Speaker 2:And I remember and this is even later, like years later thinking I know how to be rude, like in terms of like. I was trying to stand up for myself, trying to speak up for myself. I knew that was something I needed to do, and yet I didn't have the words for it and it was. I remember that feeling of like. I know how to be rude and I know how to be polite and passive, but where's the in between? How do you speak up for yourself and still be nice? And that was a language we weren't taught.
Speaker 1:And, to be fair, we learn how to, or we don't know how to speak outside of this passive, aggressive communication, but we don't know how to listen either, outside of that. So not only the way we express things now are are maybe not always appropriate, but also the way we interpret what we hear and the way we translate isn't always correct either. And to your point about knowing the in-between, I remember clearly being in situations where outside people would comment on how direct I was and it was that art. And I think actually the healthier I got, the less I cared because I was just like whatever. But I think there is that fine line of finding the middle.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I think a lot of it has to do with a particular mindset and it goes beyond just being a little bit rude and a little bit polite, you know, and mixing the two together. But I think it's, I think it's even a bigger reframe than that which which we'll get into, and and I think that there are many layers to it, right, right, and I think talking through some of those layers might help us start to recognize them just in everyday life and kind of move toward whatever the communication style is that serves us better, right.
Speaker 1:Something I've been thinking a lot about is the paradox. The German language tends to be really direct. Our first language was Pennsylvania Dutch, we think in this very direct way but yet the Anabaptist theology of non-resistance tends to promote this certain passivity, and especially, especially where you see yourself on the chain of hierarchy. So the lower you are on the hierarchy, the more passive you're supposed to be, and I think I've thought a lot about that and how interesting that plays out community.
Speaker 2:You aren't engaging with strangers. You're talking to people who know your background, you know their background, you know they know your life story. You know there's right and there's so. There is a lot of, there's a lot that can, maybe formalities that are kind of skipped over.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of things that are unsaid.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, and that right. And then that unsaidness can I guess that can be expressed both in directness and in passivity. And then, I think, in moments of stress, so moments of anxiety, including social anxiety we tend to resort to a passive communication style. And one of the things that's interesting to think about here is how, when we experience that, when we find ourselves shutting down or becoming very passive and feeling almost Now it may or may not be, but our nervous system may or may not be picking up on the right signals, but I think that is something to think about when we feel that paralysis coming on us and I'm very familiar with it to recognize, oh yeah, this is because right now I'm in an unfamiliar situation or I'm feeling threatened and this is where my body's been conditioned to go Right and when we're feeling safe, when we're with close friends, we can tend to be really direct.
Speaker 1:Because of the shared context it gives space for, and even an assumption for, all the inside jokes, for the assumed knowledge that you might not have outside of that.
Speaker 2:Right, right, I mean I think of, like those long days of canning applesauce or peaches or freezing corn, and often there would be, you know, storytelling or interesting conversations, right, because you had the space, hours and hours for them to take place. And you know this is when younger ones learned about the escapades of their elders sometimes the older generation. Then, when we're used to that being the context for this more direct, relaxed conversation, it can be hard, and for some of us, I think, it's harder than others. For me it's very difficult to generalize that to a context with people you don't know or don't know as well.
Speaker 1:The way I experience that is often feeling like I'm frozen or just not very much fun, you know, and having a hard time really loosening up around people that I don't know well, yeah, no, I think that is so real affirms our sense of not belonging, not knowing what we're doing, feeling lost, and so our confidence then gets lost in that whole thing and it can become this vicious cycle no place for the stranger, and I think what he was talking about there was that ease with which we're socialized to engage with strangers.
Speaker 2:It doesn't mean that they won't talk to someone, it just means in the social setting there's not a Okay. Here's an example. You don't need signs on the bathroom door of which is men or women's room right at church, because everybody just knows.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know and so. And sit on the right hand side, the restrooms. Even if there's restrooms in the basement, the restrooms will be on the same side for the men that they are sitting Right. I never thought about that before.
Speaker 2:And this is not to say that, because I bet if we went back to the church that we attended when we were children, I bet they do have the doors marked.
Speaker 1:But I'm just saying it's a fairly new thing. I bet when we were kids they weren't Right.
Speaker 2:And there was no need. There was no need Right. Another way that this manifests itself is how introductions, like formal introductions, are rarely made, because A people are usually on a first name basis and everyone already knows your life story, or at least the public version, and then socializing is typically gendered. So you're you know, socializing within you know, other for us, other young women. But this was something that Jodi Picoult talks about in her book, about that's set in an Amish community. That really struck me, and it was that the character in the book was non-Amish background and was there for just a couple of weeks and had come to church and she thought she expected that she would be introduced to people you know like there would be these formal introductions and no, and nobody even like paid any attention to her.
Speaker 2:And she realized, oh, word had got out beforehand that she was coming and that she would be there. Everybody knew who she was already. For me that was enlightening, because I hadn't even consciously thought about that, but I was like, oh yeah, Cause that's why, like I still struggle, I still have to like consciously remind myself to introduce myself. Somewhere deep inside me there's a little girl that is nervous about taking the initiative to say hi, my name is Naomi Clark.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and if there are introductions made, they're made based on who your parents are oh, yes, who your grandparents are, yes, if introductions are made, it's based on the Mennonite game.
Speaker 2:Right, and they're done very informally, but yes, and that is an important part of the socializing process, right.
Speaker 1:And so when you get outside of that community and all of a sudden have to make introductions where who your grandparents are doesn't matter, you're lost. What does matter? What is important? Who am I outside of that?
Speaker 2:And especially when you haven't gone to high school or you haven't gone to college, right, like. What do you talk about, right, right, yeah, yeah. Now I know this is not unique to plain cultures. I've read about this, you know, in relation to other cultures too, and it's so interesting because I can't even tell you where. I think it was like on the radio ages and ages ago. They were talking about a village that I guess sociologists or anthropologists were visiting in rural China and they were talking about how the people didn't say please and thank you as they were passing things around. And it wasn't about rudeness, it was just please and thank you would have been like these formal. It would have felt like too formal that you were like actually distancing yourself from the family members sitting around the table and I was like, okay, because sometimes plain culture can come across as rude because it, when it lacks those formalities and I'm not saying people don't say please and thank you, just that it resonated with me when I heard that.
Speaker 1:But growing up we didn't use please and thank you. That makes sense. Well, thank you.
Speaker 2:That makes sense. Well, did we? I remember being taught to say that, but not. But wasn't it outside, kind of outside, like if you?
Speaker 1:were outside of the. Yeah, maybe that's what it was. If a stranger was giving you a piece of candy, okay Say thank you. Yeah, you're right, it was taught outside. It wasn't taught when you were functioning inside the community. Yeah, you're right, it was not a big deal.
Speaker 2:I don't think so. You're right, that resonates. I've looked up a list because I thought, well, you know somebody I'm sure on the internet has a list of direct and indirect communication styles, and I found one example I thought was really relevant here and interesting and kind of makes that unspoken spoken. And this is a quote from someone who said that what isn't said can be as important as what is said, which, yes, absolutely, and here's the quote I would never tell a friend that I didn't like her dress. Instead, I would tell her I liked her shoes, omitting reference to the dress. Right, and maybe you know, especially this is like a new dress or something she would understand. I didn't like her dress because I didn't mention it, and I think white middle class culture does this a lot.
Speaker 2:I think so too actually I don't think this is just traditional cultures that does this, yeah, does this, yeah, oh yeah. But I think you know we were socialized to keep quiet, keep our heads down, get to work, don't draw attention to yourself, being demure, almost shy, was a virtue, and I think the only initiative that we generally heard applauded you know, someone taking initiative was when they were doing work quietly in the background and not to say that's not valuable, but it's just. We knew that drawing attention to ourselves was going to be interpreted in a really negative way and that we were given that message in a million different ways.
Speaker 1:Yet at the same time, that didn't actually work out well. Message in a million different ways, yet at the same time, that didn't actually work out well.
Speaker 1:Right, you know, this week, this week, I heard the phrase oh we don't take him that literally, we just take him or that seriously. And I think there were some of us in the culture who took things literally and then all of a sudden looked around and we were like, yeah, that's actually not how it's actually working. What was said, the rules that were given or communicated yeah, when followed literally didn't work out well. Yeah, no At the same time, because if you actually followed those rules, it didn't serve you in terms of gaining social capital, it didn't bring you, you weren't popular for it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, nobody, because that's the thing Like. At the same time, yes, being sanctimonious was not like, especially among peers. Being sanctimonious did not make you friends, right.
Speaker 1:Like, especially among peers. Being sanctimonious did not make you friends, right? So it was like this tightrope of keeping the authority figures happy, but yet you had to have enough. And is this where the passive, aggressive thing becomes so important? Because you still had to have enough of a personality that other people found it attractive, yeah Well to connect with anyone, you have to have a personality to be remotely authentic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that emphasis on following the rules right, doing everything right, and so if you were a young person who really took that seriously and literally following those rules so carefully, makes it very difficult to be authentic, because your focus is not on being who you are, the focus is on meeting expectations, and emotionally close relationships are nearly impossible without authenticity, are nearly impossible without authenticity. And I think this thing kind of well. It comes out sideways through passive aggression. And I think another place we see hints of this is how we admired the spirit and spontaneity of characters like Anne of Green, gables, valancy in the Blue Castle and both of these are Ella Montgomery books. We admired their spirit, we admired their daring. At the same time, we knew we couldn't do that, but we admired it and there was a contradiction there and you know we talked about people who could bend the rules and get by with it.
Speaker 1:As you know, we'd say I'll ask that a slippery, and when, when outsiders talk about someone being slippery, they're usually talking about someone who might steal. Okay, right, oh, interesting, yeah, and in in that context, it was just more someone who knew how to work the system. Yeah, and I still think in Holmes County, you see a lot of Amish who are incredibly Innovative. Yeah, and I still think that's where that skill comes from. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I still think that's where that skill comes from. Yeah, yeah, you have these rules, and how do we learn to work inside the rules but make it work for us?
Speaker 2:Right To achieve our Right, yeah, yeah. And I think another way this would manifest itself was also how much we look forward to being older, getting older, yeah, yeah, and you know, because then we'd be higher in the hierarchy, we might, you know, feel more respected, have some autonomy. And I know my teen does not look forward to being, to getting older, like she's scared, frankly, of that. That's an overstatement. I think she's very aware of the world and and she knows she maybe knows too much and it does not look appealing in comparison to the safety and comfort of home.
Speaker 1:You know, it's interesting to say that I had some of my kids in therapy at one point and I remember talking to their therapist and just being like, so confused. I'm like you know we had this conversation and they're like but I don't want to grow up, I don't, you know, I think I think the conversation was like oh, my word, I am 14. In two years I'm gonna have to be driving a car and then two years later, we have to be going into college, freak out time, like just just. And I remember looking at the therapist, being like I don't get it. What am I doing wrong? And she looks at me and she's like you're doing nothing wrong, do you not understand how safe they feel? And I was like, oh, I had never had that thought before, that a teen wouldn't be just counting the days for their next birthday was a complete new thought to me right yeah, and I think to some degree that's a generational shift.
Speaker 2:Maybe that's more in the broader culture, but I yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I think that makes a big difference and also what we didn't know.
Speaker 1:back to this thing about thinking that, you know, the older we get, we might actually get some respect and have some autonomy In retrospect. This wasn't really a game that most of us could win at Authority. Figures really didn't have to be logical or fair, and wasn't it almost more about learning how to have the God talk? Like if we could figure out how to have a Bible verse. Yeah, text.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, Right. Or find a way to spiritualize the thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah it almost became more about that conversation which, interestingly enough, is still many times my go-to knee-jerk reaction.
Speaker 2:Oh, I remember giving notice at a job and feeling very like I had a hard time thinking of an alternative to the phrase. I believe I feel God is leading me. Yeah, and this was again. This was a very religious kind of workplace, so, but like feeling like I couldn't, or I think maybe I finally got myself to the place of saying I am being led I didn't say by whom but like the difficulty in saying I am choosing this, yeah, it was just yeah, because I had internalized the God talk, that really, or the you know, the guilt trips were being taking initiative, to take taking initiative in my life. Yeah, but, yes, I agree, it's like because the reality is, as you turn, as you, even, as you grow older, yeah, you might be higher on the hierarchy, but there's always still someone above you who can, who has plenty of guilt trips ready to pass out, tickets to guilt trips ready to pass out, you know, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I also had to figure out and I remember figuring this out that all of a sudden, when I was higher on the hierarchy, I was conflicted with some of the unkindness that was part of that.
Speaker 2:The insensitivity to others.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I remember being conflicted, and not all of a sudden. It wasn't something I wanted after all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I hear you. I hear you. Homeschool Heretic is a YouTuber who I love and she's got great content and we'll link to it in the show notes. But she made such an insightful observation about how, in an insular kind of the conservative Christian homeschool environment, we are taught and we learn how to relate to, we learn how to relate within hierarchies and then, once we get out of that insular culture, can actually be a challenge to shift gears and learn how to relate to peers instead of right, instead of thinking of them in hierarchies.
Speaker 2:And and I think the way that I make sense of this in my head is that it's less about the particular age of the person we're talking to and it's more about knowing or having the language for talking with someone who's above you or below you in the hierarchy, but not knowing how to talk in a reciprocal, relational way. And I feel, as I'm saying this, there are a million voices saying, yeah, that's not true. In my situation I have friends and yes, yes, yes, that's right, I'm speaking in generalities here, but there is a difference in having a conversation on how we relate to someone that we see either above or below us in hierarchy versus someone we see in an equal, reciprocal relationship, and I think in a lot of these insular communities there's just far, far more hierarchical relationships than reciprocal, equal ones.
Speaker 1:So don't you think, though, that that's why marriages can be so difficult? Difficult for whom? Because I think we are taught to think of the structures and the hierarchy more than we are on this neutral playing field. I mean, everyone knows the birth order. That's important. Where you are, even in the family, that's important.
Speaker 2:And it's childish but, like as a kid, it matters if I remember having arguments with cousins about the five days difference in our birthdays.
Speaker 1:That mattered. It did, it did, and so doesn't it only make sense that you get married and your knee jerk reaction would be to move into these hierarchies. Yeah, I had never thought about it that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you're right and it's not. I mean, well, of course, hierarchy in marriage is preached, but it wouldn't even need to. Yes, it's taught actively. But even if it weren't, I think these enculturated ways of relating would contribute to that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, fascinating yeah.
Speaker 2:Fascinating. So I think when we have an environment that is emphasizing rule following emphasizing, maintaining a hierarchy one way, concern for needs right, if your needs matter, the higher on the hierarchy you are I think manipulation and passive aggressiveness is just a natural outcome of an environment like that. I mean it's a survival skill, especially when it's not safe to tell the truth about what we need or what we want. When you're in an environment that's prioritizing all these other things and we don't feel safe to tell the truth about what we need or desire, it comes out sideways. And I think one way this manifests itself in my own life too was like even being afraid that, like giving the context when I was apologizing for something or when I messed up on something, I was nervous that providing context would be seen as making excuses for myself, which the reality is. That can come off as rude, and I'm not saying. I'm not saying everybody else experiences this, this is just my own brain.
Speaker 1:No, I think you're onto something. I think you're onto something because making excuses is not a good thing.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no, no, no no.
Speaker 1:Especially if you're lower on the hierarchy Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm, yeah, and providing context can very quickly be seen as just making excuses.
Speaker 1:Fascinating.
Speaker 2:And I think in this context, especially when there's a lot of black and white thinking or when we tend that way, then, yeah, the only options are passivity or aggression. There's no way to speak up without being bossy, and I think what was really important for me was recognizing that assertiveness is not another word for being bossy. Assertiveness is speaking frankly, directly and speaking with the assumption that all our needs matter, not just those in charge or those higher on the hierarchy, and I think there's this quiet, drama-free confidence about it that can be very unsettling to a hierarchy, and it's powerful.
Speaker 1:I love that and I couldn't agree more. Yeah, it is. It is Just showing up and saying what you need to say and just leaving it set.
Speaker 2:Just showing up and saying what you need to say and just leaving it set. And I think part of this part of the social dynamic in many of these contexts is that if you're lower on the hierarchy, you are not allowed to say what is true about people further up in the hierarchy. You know we're supposed to look the other way, we're supposed to look at the beam in our own eye instead of the speck in the other's eye. You know all those verses are applied to those lower in the hierarchy and telling the truth about abusive behavior, telling the truth about unhealthy behavior, telling the truth about behavior that's harming someone, is seen as disrespect and not as telling the truth. And I think assertiveness is saying, hey look, everybody's needs here matter, right, and we're just going to say it like it is no drama, we're just going to be truthful, right.
Speaker 1:And I think this really becomes important when you're looking at family dynamics, because I've been curious about the ways many times there are kids who will defend their parents to the death like their parents did no wrong, everything was done, right and good, when actually there were some really dysfunctional results, really dysfunctional results. And I think sometimes digging into your family history can be really tricky because there is a real strong sense of loyalty and a refusal to challenge that hierarchy, wanting to be respectful. But I think it's going to be a really important part of the process for many of us to learn how to challenge those narratives and to keep asking questions, because I think it can become so insightful into some of the family dynamics. Right, right and yes.
Speaker 2:I hear what you're saying, like I think there's like really really good hearted people who just want to do the right thing and part of the right thing is being loyal, yeah, and not airing dirty laundry, and that gets translated into ignoring things that maybe, yeah, maybe, need to be looked into.
Speaker 1:In some ways, it just makes sense that abuse is overlooked. It's a system designed.
Speaker 2:Well, I say designed. It is a system that facilitates abuse and protects abusers. There's no question about that. So I think if we want to move toward speaking with more assertiveness and kind of getting outside this hierarchical dynamic, this hierarchical style of communication passive, aggressive, manipulative man it could be hard. It can be really hard because we can encounter this with others passive aggressiveness in others and then and also in ourselves, and so I think it might be easier to recognize it in other people and then and then recognize it in ourselves. But hey, communication is two ways, so both of these are are important. What are some things that have been helpful for you in dealing with passive aggressiveness that you're getting from others?
Speaker 1:Oh boy, dealing with passive aggressiveness in others. Yeah, that's interesting, I think. Sometimes recognizing I don't know, do we call it gaslighting effect, maybe gaslighting light effect and simply paying attention to what your body is telling you and to believe the sensory input around you. We know, we have been taught to recognize what those in the room need and want, and I think we can learn to trust those senses that we're getting, even in this type of situation, those senses that we're getting even in this type of situation. So, instead of looking for what people necessarily want and thinking we have to fix it, maybe we're just paying attention to what our body is telling us about the information we're receiving.
Speaker 2:We need another word for gaslighting light, I think, because gaslighting is when someone's intentionally trying to make you think you're crazy and doubt yourself by, you know, doing something Like. It's pretty intentional and I think we need another word for the same effect that maybe gets enculturated. I mean, we do this to kids all the time when they fall and scrape their knee oh, get up, it's not a big deal, you didn't hurt, you're fine, you're fine, keep going. We need a word for that. It's like gaslighting, but we aren't is withholding information in this process. So it's not a lie, yeah, a lie of omission.
Speaker 1:Yes, and Amish Mennonite culture is pretty good at this.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Knowledge is power and they know it. Yeah, knowledge is power and they know it. Yeah, and and and. So it feels like gaslighting, like you're getting this whole like am I crazy? Crazy? You start playing, you're doubting yourself. You're doubting yourself, yeah, and and. So, whether or not their intention, isn't that their intention, though, oftentimes?
Speaker 2:their intention is to get you to accept their reality. Whether or not you feel crazy doesn't matter. Yeah I guess they just want you to accept their, their description of reality, their version of reality. Yeah, and that's the, that's the. I think, that's the, that's the difference, I think.
Speaker 1:And yeah, we need a word for that, but we do need a word for that, because it's really real and that's something I've really had to deal with and you know what? I think I had to deal with that more here in Holmes County than I would have in Buffalo Valley. Interesting, like this whole thing of just omitting information. You can never accuse them of lying they would never lie but boy do they know how to omit information. You can never accuse them of lying they would never lie, but boy do they know how to omit information. And then having any type of conversation about it is like trying to pin Jell-O to a tree you can't do it. So there is a real element there and I think, even if you can never get them to acknowledge it, be honest with yourself, with what's happening and the ability to quit doubting yourself, I think is so important Right, because what comes next, often too, is kind of being cowed into spiritual bypassing.
Speaker 2:Just give it to God. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. We can go down the list of all the band-aids that are offered for deep, deep wounds. And the reality is, of course, if you don't process your grief and disappointment, frustration, pain, all those negative emotions, they will come out sideways. And disappointment, frustration, pain, all those negative emotions, they will come out sideways and they do Right, right as passive aggressiveness, as physical ailments, as all kinds of things, mental health issues. And I think what is missed so often is that in numbing the pain, we're also numbing our capacity for joy. So true, and I think, well, I don't know, I think this kind of works out on behalf of the hierarchy, because you know what Joyful people are a whole lot harder to control than numb people. Numb people you can kind of move them around like little widgets, right, joyful people have a confidence. That is a lot harder to control. So I don't know that kind of works out well for them?
Speaker 1:I think it does. I hadn't made that connection either, but I think you're right. I didn't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I didn't think about it until just now. Yeah.
Speaker 1:The other thing that I think is important to remember, guys there is no need to laugh at a cruel joke at anybody's expense, specifically not yours. Don't let people hide behind the plausible deniability of downplaying something that was really cruel as a joke. We are good at saying mean things in a joking way.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, oh my goodness. Yes, and we can get by with it when we are in a group that knows us. When we are within, like an insular group, we can often get away with it better, in a way that we could never make that joke in public right Without looking like a complete jerk.
Speaker 1:Well, and in Pennsylvania Dutch, there's even just phrases, oh yeah, like short little phrases that can be said, that are funny until it's about you, and then it's like oh, yuck, that hurts.
Speaker 1:Right right, and something I've started trying to do and I've practiced this in my head is, when those things are being said, I feel like oftentimes you have. It feels like you have the choice of either just laughing with it and pretending you don't get it or saying, oh, that's not true, that's not true. But there is a third option. What if you just say out loud huh, what does that even mean? I don't get the joke. Explain it to me, or why is that funny to you? I have found this to be so freeing. I don't have to decide what it means. I don't have to decide what it means to me or them.
Speaker 1:You don't have to pass judgment, I don't have to do the head work, I don't have to do the emotional energy of figuring it out. No, I invite them to tell me what it means.
Speaker 2:I love that. I love that and I think it's good to be aware of this, because so often if I find myself in a situation like that, like it's like the moment has almost passed before I recognize what it was, because it's so normal respond in a certain way. When somebody tells a joke, you know you're supposed to and when you are in an unfamiliar environment or you know high stakes social situation like that, it just piles on I but I love those comebacks and comebacks. They are, they are responses. They are, they are responses, they are assertive responses. I think another thing that we don't learn how to handle in a lot of these environments, or to recognize and handle, is when someone is not acting in good faith. I think so often you know, the things we're told about how to handle conflict are things like kill them with kindness or heaping coals of fire on their head.
Speaker 2:Turn the other cheek Right, all those things Right, and those things can work in some situations, but when someone is not acting in good faith, we need to recognize it, and it is not. It's not being judgy to recognize it, or if it is judgy, it's OK. I mean it's it's, it's important, and I think some red flags that I've learned to pick up on that have helped me know that I'm dealing with. A situation like this is like when I find myself ruminating again and again, right, imagining conversations, trying to think how I'm going to word something just right to keep them from weaponizing those words against me.
Speaker 2:Would you have to, again and again, think through just the right thing to say? That's not going to set them off, but it's going to get the right response? That is a time to pause and ask yourself if they even want to understand you or if they're only trying to maintain their power position, because if the conversation is suggesting they have no willingness to understand you, then nothing you can say is going to get through that, and I think that's a good time to make an internal boundary, instead of telling them stop gaslighting me, or whatever you could say justifiably, making a note to self and setting a boundary internally that aligns with your values is looking out for your own well-being. In other words, stop playing the game, stop taking the blame and just disengaging to the best of your ability and sometimes that's easier than other times but radical acceptance that someone is not acting in good faith is one of the most freeing realizations in life.
Speaker 1:I think sometimes it hurts less for myself when I'm in these situations to think, oh, they didn't mean it that way, or, you know, I bet their intention wasn't this. That hurts me less initially to assume that than to understand they knew exactly what they were doing.
Speaker 2:Yes, I'm so glad you brought that up, because that can be. I mean, the way that often looks for me anyway is going oh, feeling like I'm mature enough, right, I can overlook it and I can deal with it. I'm not one of those high maintenance people who make out and out of a molehill, Right.
Speaker 1:And I think there's a certain element that it is painful to acknowledge, that perhaps someone who you thought was close to you is kind of intentionally being mean. Oh, that hurts about them doesn't really matter to some level in that scenario, because it's like I just want to be important enough to them that they don't do that intentionally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and radical acceptance is what can get us out of that, but it's so, so hard and I think this is something to recognize that, as children, that's how we survive, like we have to play those.
Speaker 1:Especially as a middle child. That's our whole gig as a middle child. That's how we survived, and I think being able to say and you did that so well like that was a skill you learned and it got you where you are today, but it's not a skill that's serving you well anymore.
Speaker 2:Now, as an adult, when you have more autonomy, when you have the ability to protect yourself in a way you didn't before, yeah, and of course, of course some of those comments are made sometimes unintentionally.
Speaker 1:Of course, sometimes those comments are not intended to hurt intentionally. Of course, sometimes those comments are not intended to hurt. But even then, in a healthy relationship, it is perfectly appropriate to say wait, that kind of stung, what did you mean by that? So this isn't about assuming the best or assuming the worst. This is about being honest about the way things felt. I love that. And in a healthy relationship, if someone comes back and just says, oh well, you're just being high maintenance or you're just being difficult or you're just being sensitive, that is a good sign that things aren't quite as healthy as they possibly should be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, those are not legitimate criticisms.
Speaker 1:That's not acting in good faith from the other party.
Speaker 2:No, no no, no I mean sensitive, so what Like?
Speaker 1:right, right, yeah, and why? How hard is it to say and I've had to do this Say, oh, you are right, I can exactly see how you got there. What I said was hurtful or could land. Yeah, yeah, I said was hurtful or could land hurtful. Yeah, I get that Like how hard is it to just be honest about? Yeah, I did get that wrong. I see why that hurt.
Speaker 2:And express concern for the other person's experience, Like how hard is it to say, how hard is it to acknowledge it hurt them as a separate issue from our intent, Like that's not hard, but when you're operating in a dynamic of hierarchy it is hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's very unsafe when you're operating from a sense of hierarchy or a frame of hierarchy.
Speaker 2:Right, right, and I think one of the ways that we can kind of navigate those situations, or kind of one of the guiding lights, as it were, is matching their energy, and this is something advice you often have given me in tricky situations.
Speaker 2:It is not our job to do all the work in what is supposed to be a reciprocal relationship. Right, I'm not going to match my children's energy because I'm their parent and I have responsibility to them. It's my job to set the tone, right. But when we're dealing with a peer, when we're dealing with someone with whom we should be having a reciprocal relationship, it's not our job to keep them from feeling any kind of negative emotions.
Speaker 2:And while I mentioned being in this group coaching program and there was one exchange that was really interesting to me and relates to this that someone was saying I think it was talking about like setting boundaries or saying no to obligations, that kind of thing, and the response was but then I'm going to feel guilty, and the coach says, yeah, that's your work, that's your job is to tolerate that feeling and let them deal with their feelings. And so I think learning that other people's negative emotions aren't going to kill us, that their disapproval won't kill us, I mean, I can't believe how many decades it's taken me to learn this, but it gets so ingrained in us as children. I mean this again this is how we survived, but now other people. Other people are not dependent on us. You know, like peers right People who other adults are not. It's not our job to make sure they feel okay all the time, right.
Speaker 1:And a perfect example of matching energy is and I'm not proud of this. I am way too invested in sister wives.
Speaker 2:I'm a little horrified. I'm a little bit horrified oh I.
Speaker 1:I don't know why I invite this drama into my life, but I do and there was a clip yours feel pace.
Speaker 2:It makes your your life feel peaceful, in contrast, maybe, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:But there was a clip where Mary realized she was doing all the work. She was the only one who was texting Robin and saying, hey, how are you? Hey, we should get together. If she wasn't making the effort, it wasn't being done.
Speaker 2:And Mary was the first wife and Robin is the youngest favorite was the first wife and Robin is the youngest favorite.
Speaker 1:And Robin swears that Mary is her favorite person. Oh yeah, mary, or Robin loves to go on and on about how much she loves Mary, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so there's that important dynamic.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:Mary just made the observation that if I don't do it, it doesn't happen, and so she stopped. That's matching energy. Yeah, yes, yes, and not in every friendship. Like I'm not saying that every relationship has to be a tick for tat, that's different. But this is just simply being aware that if I'm never allowed to have a crisis, or if no one, if this person never thinks of me and initiate something, maybe it's a bit one sided and it's okay to pay attention to that type of thing.
Speaker 2:You glitched right there. It's okay to pay attention.
Speaker 1:It's okay to pay attention to what you're receiving from other people, because I think it's easy for it's easy for me to assume that maybe I need someone or I love someone or I might lose someone. If I don't do all the things and if a relationship is hinged totally on what I do, we're in trouble.
Speaker 2:Agreed, and I think this kind of dynamic is really useful in a lot of hierarchies, but in those of us with an Anabaptist background, martyrdom is just deep in our bones. I mean the value of martyrdom, the virtue of it, I mean that's stars in our freaking crowns when we suffer. I mean suffering. Yeah, and it can be so valorized. But just notice if it's valorized for the people at the top of the hierarchy as much as for those at the bottom. Right.
Speaker 1:Right, right. And I think I think even sometimes with our peers, it can be easy to put those relationships into a hierarchy who has the most status, who's got the most money, who's got the most influence, even when it's presented as a peer relationship. And I think it would do us well to pay attention. Yeah, and pay attention without judging, just be curious about it, like just pay attention.
Speaker 2:Right, because there can be a lot of nuance to it. We're speaking in generalities here, right? We're not. We are not the gurus of the world.
Speaker 1:It's just things we're learning.
Speaker 2:It's things we're practicing it's just things we're learning, it's things we're practicing and but, and there's not one right answer, and that's why being open and curious is so important, so that we are taking in information and right. That's really helpful. So you tell me, tell me about this next one. So you suggested recently that I put a difficult text exchange into ChatGPT and see what ChatGPT says about it, and so I formatted it so that it was very clear who was saying what, and I put it in with a prompt to analyze it for the relative health or toxicity of of the relationship. And let me tell you what chat GPT produced was well, as you said it was. It was a whole lot cheaper and a whole lot faster than going to a therapist. Yeah, we've been brought up in a very insular culture. This can be a really useful way, because what ChatGPT excels at is known information right Organizing known information. It's not good at coming up with original ideas, but it's good at organizing information. So I think this is an awesome use of it.
Speaker 1:So it also means, if you get an email or if you get a text message and you're like I don't know how to respond or if I should respond, insert it into chat GBT and just see what their take is on it. Like I know, chat GBT gets a bad rap for a lot of good reasons Agreed. But I'm telling you, chat GBT also has some really, really good good things that it brings to the table. Is it the perfect answer? Is it going to take care of all your life's difficulties? No, but it certainly does give you another option and I think it's really insightful sometimes, yeah it was more insightful than I expected, that's for sure.
Speaker 2:Whenever we talk about it at school, I tell my students that ChatGPT is my frenemy, yeah that's fair. Yeah, that's fair. That's stronger than ever now. I think yeah.
Speaker 1:You're getting closer and closer to the friend part of it, right.
Speaker 2:Oh, as long as it doesn't take my job yeah exactly.
Speaker 1:So how do we deal with passive aggressiveness in ourselves?
Speaker 2:Well, I think something that you've mentioned a few times already, and I think it's worth underlining one more time, is that giving ourselves grace is so important, because this is we deserve credit, right? Our younger selves deserve credit for using this coping mechanism that many of us learned early in life, and it was modeled for us. It kept us safe, it kept us out of the line of fire. You know, it's this thing that we aspired to, maybe consciously or not, and now, as adults, we go oh wait, no, I don't want to be that way, and we can kind of beat ourselves up all over again for it and it's like no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2:This is not sin nature, this is not selfishness, it's not immaturity Well, I mean, maybe it is immaturity. Well, I mean, maybe it is immature, but like developmentally appropriate immaturity, right, it's a trauma response right it's a trauma response.
Speaker 1:Our nervous system's trying to keep us safe and I think getting rid of the guilt involved in it or the shame involved in it and just looking at it with a lot of curiosity is so helpful and and curiosity in ourselves and in others, like just be curious about it because that allows you to see it and even if someone yells at you for it, refuse to accept the shame, refuse. You can be like, yeah, you know, I can see how you got there. But oftentimes I think people who accuse you of being passive, aggressive, are projecting when you start being less easy to manipulate. I think this is an easy it's easy ammunition.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it sounds so insightful.
Speaker 1:Well, and from that culture being told you're being a passive aggressive, is that that's a pretty serious accusation.
Speaker 2:Right, and I think maybe not passive aggressiveness, but certainly passive communication styles have a time and a place. So, like it's conceivable that someone who's listening to this podcast still needs to use that from time to time. Right, you know, still is going to like consciously. I think that's the thing, though. Like can you, can we consciously choose? Ok, I know this is not really being true to myself. Right now I don't have the bandwidth to go. I'll play the game for now, but I know I'm doing it and I'm taking ownership of it, and I think it's when it's no longer serving us, when we're realizing wait, this is creating more distance between me and others, this is hindering my relationships. That's really when it's time to go. You know what? Is there a better way of doing this? Is there a different way, a way that's going to serve me better? And the thing is, it's hard to learn new. It can be difficult to learn new communication patterns, but it's possible and it just takes time and practice, and I agree that shame and guilt only slow that down.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And in the process of learning, you're going to get it wrong.
Speaker 1:So I mean, just be okay with that, accept it, embrace it and give yourself the space to learn something new and to practice something different. And I will often, if something happens and I wasn't thrilled with my response to it, I'll try and think and not necessarily replay the situation over and over again, but just say, okay, the next time this happens, the next time I happens, the next time I get that feeling, what do I want to say in response? And then practice that in my head so it feels normal. And then the next time it happens, I have that ready. Okay, do I like the way that played out? Do I like the way that felt? And it kind of gives you a chance to. I mean, life is just us trying to figure it out as we go. We're learning new things, we're always evolving and I think this whole notion that if we do things perfectly, it's going to play out okay for us is just crap. Yeah, like we can't get it perfect, no one can.
Speaker 2:It's a way to keep us on that endless guilt crap, yeah, like we can't get it perfect, no one can. It's a way to keep us on that endless guilt trip, yeah, yeah, spinning. Something that was helpful for me was to recognize what it was I could be doing differently or how I could see a situation differently. And, for example, in a counseling session I remember a therapist. I was talking about a situation that was annoying me and it was just creating a real problem for me. And the therapist said well, what do you need? And I was kind of annoyed with the question. But I recognize now this was in a conflict with someone else and I recognize now what he was probably trying to. He probably didn't realize my own internalized resistance to asking for what I need.
Speaker 2:And I think what I've discovered is that when we feel we can't express our needs, the way that comes out sideways is often in criticism to others. So when I have a need that's not being met, instead of saying hey, I need this or that, which is a very vulnerable place and it's a place we're told is selfish and it's a you know, there are all these reasons we don't think about expressing ourselves that way. Instead we say you're being selfish, you're. You know it comes out as criticism of the other person and nobody likes being criticized. Right, but you know it comes out as criticism of the other person and nobody likes being criticized.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But you know, instead of saying you're talking over me, saying I'm not feeling heard, yeah. Instead of saying I'll talk after you've calmed down which you know is like gas on fire saying something like let's talk when we're both feeling more like ourselves. Or instead of I won't talk with you when you've been drinking, Maybe let's talk about this one. We're both sober, yeah. And so I think, when we find ourselves looking to blame someone, whether that's ourselves or others, becoming conscious of it and and and getting curious about what we are feeling now, what series of events brought us here and what it is that we need, and framing it around that need. So, instead of saying get out of my way, I need space, I'm coming through.
Speaker 1:It's a mental shift and this is where we can express our needs, while also taking into consideration others' needs, Like it's not a zero-sum game Right, and I think, when we reflect on our own passive aggressiveness or manipulative tendencies, we can then ask ourselves and we do this by being curious what did I need in that moment that I couldn't verbalize? What requests could have I made instead? Or maybe what internal or external boundaries could have been set? I just think starting to ask these questions more from, like you said, more from a curious perspective, instead of needing to accuse or pass, is so freeing and far more productive.
Speaker 2:I agree, and that's what leads to that quiet confidence we were talking about yeah, yeah, because we're no longer trying to control something we can't control Right. We're no longer trying to push a rock up a hill. I mean, you know, it's yeah, yeah. So I was looking for some ideas that we could talk about, ideas that might be baby steps toward assertiveness, and I found a description of assertive communication and I'll put the link in the show notes, but this is kind of general information that you could that you can find in a million different places online. Assertive communication is direct, honest communication of thoughts and feelings. It's respecting the feelings, ideas and needs of others while also asserting your own. So these are things we've been already talking about. Now it may not be effective when interacting with individuals that threaten your personal safety. People often misinterpret assertive behavior as aggressive. Americans and women are often mislabeled as a result, and there's a whole gendered component to this we could get into if we wanted.
Speaker 1:It's a whole gendered component.
Speaker 2:Yeah, another two-hour podcast. Examples include I statements like I feel when you and I need for you to do. Body language includes eye contact, straight posture and relaxed gestures. So I think these points resonate with what we've already been saying. Now, some other things that came across that were really that kind of hit. Me included this from an article about making new friends after leaving high control. Religion was when meeting new people just assume that they like you.
Speaker 1:Isn't that a novel concept?
Speaker 2:It sat me back on my butt. Yeah, this state made me realize that I often assume people aren't gonna like me automatically assume a defensive posture well it's.
Speaker 1:It's between the assumption that people might not like me or that I have to prove my worthiness to them yes, and it might not be active dislike, it's just just I'm going to have to prove my worthiness.
Speaker 1:Yes, and it does speak directly against what is often taught in high control religion to consider oneself being bad or evil, or less than or broken. And the energy behind this piece of advice is more like you know, I have something to offer, I deserve to take up space, I'm worthy of connection, I matter and you know what? I might actually be pretty awesome. And I think it's so, so important to embrace that thought process and that belief because, it is true, we are pretty amazing people, you are amazing people.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, that's the thing To say. I'm amazing doesn't mean you're not Right.
Speaker 1:Right yeah, and to approach relationships in this way goes back to that mutual deserving of respect, that mutual relationship. It's not a hierarchy.
Speaker 2:Right, and I think when we approach especially those of us who struggle with, maybe, social anxiety, that kind of thing, I think this can really shift things for us and a way to express this confidence, this sense of security. There's another word that I'm looking for there, but is to start the conversation and do it with the sense of like it's putting others at ease, by greeting them first, and I think at first it can be a little awkward if we're not used to doing that. But I think of a friend. Well, it was actually someone I worked with way back in the day. Tandy, if you're out there, I always think of you with so much fondness.
Speaker 2:She disrupted some of my neural pathways when it comes to confidence. This was an incredibly kind and generous, gracious, humble colleague. She was a few years older than me and so I you know I kind of looked up to her, and yet she would approach interactions like when she met someone for the first time. She would like she just had this confidence about the way she would reach out her hand and say, hi, I'm Tindy. And you know it was just. I was not used to seeing that kind of assertiveness, and it was assertiveness out of, not out of aggressiveness, it was not a dominating kind of thing at all and so she kind of she scrambled my brain in a very, very good way, and I think about her all the time when I think about the power of greeting someone first.
Speaker 1:Isn't it amazing what we can learn by watching other people?
Speaker 2:Oh, I agree, I agree.
Speaker 1:You can learn so much by watching other people, and I think that it's important to note that this confidence that comes with assertiveness certainly doesn't mean that we don't care what anyone thinks or that we refuse all feedback. That we don't care what anyone thinks or that we refuse all feedback. It simply means that we decide whose feedback matters to us and whose doesn't. And I think this is important, coming from a tight-knit culture, because in a tight-knit culture one person's judgment, kind of-.
Speaker 1:Everybody's feedback yeah, it quickly goes to everybody's feedback and being able to own your own value and your own worthiness is huge.
Speaker 2:Something that I think about in conversations like this is a script that I learned from a therapy session and this was given as one of those ways to make those I statements or to make a request. You know how to say what you need without coming off as criticizing the other person. Yeah, yeah, or at least making an attempt, because I have more to say about that. So first you make an emotionally neutral observation. I see that the unfold. So you come home from work and the you know living room, dining room, whatever the house is a mess. First, making a neutral observation I see that the unfolded laundry from this morning is still on the kitchen table. And then make an I statement about its impact on you. So that neutral observation is not I see you didn't do anything or you know what have you been doing all day? Right, but making an I statement about its impact on you.
Speaker 2:When I come home from a long day of work just before dinner time, I feel overwhelmed at the thought of making dinner in a cluttered kitchen. Make a request Is there a way you could fold and put away your laundry before I get home so we can have dinner and enjoy a nice evening together? So that's making a request, and I think I want to be clear here that there are times you can make a perfectly fine request and if someone is determined to take offense, they will still take offense. And I think that is a time when you pay attention to their lack of interest in your intent Because you might be dealing with someone who's not coming to the conversation in good faith. An acronym that's been helpful for me when you're dealing with some of those high conflict situations or situations that could become high conflict and you're going what do I say? What do I say? So chat GPT is a great, great option. This is another one is to focus on being brief, informative, friendly and firm, and this is from Bill Eddy's work and I'll link his stuff in the show notes. So the acronym is BIF, b-i-f-f brief, keep it brief, keep it informative. Say what you need to say. Friendly, right, not aggressive, and then firm, as in not a pushover, right.
Speaker 2:And in line with what I just said a minute ago about someone who's not coming to a conversation like this in good faith, I think we can't expect that a change in our approach is necessarily going to fix the situation We've often been led to believe. You know, the marriage books, the relationship books, will suggest that we can. And Bill Gothard oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:In the short term, things might even get worse, because if you are engaging differently, if you are not going along with this manipulative or passive, aggressive system, you're rocking the boat and people may not take well to it, especially if they themselves do a lot of this passive, aggressive and manipulative behavior. But again, you don't have to hold everything together. You're not to blame automatically if things do get rocky, if things do get worse, and instead of trying to hold everything together, just focus on what your values are. How do you want to live? Make that your marker of success. Did I engage in this interaction in a way that I'm proud of? That's what matters, more than whether or not you live happily ever after.
Speaker 1:Right, because in a relationship, both parties are always allowed to change the rules. It's an evolving process and as we grow and mature, it only makes sense that things shift, things change, things grow and we each, I think, are responsible how, both parties are responsible for how you show up in in the relationship yes everyone has the right to change the rules and ideally you can talk about it openly, right, and have a dialogue about it and make sure everybody's needs are getting that right right.
Speaker 2:In a toxic system that might not be possible, right, right.
Speaker 1:So that was a lot of information. I hope this helps. Sonia, we probably didn't fully answer your question, but thank you, thank you. Thank you for asking it because it was such a good conversation. It was such a good question and I hope we've opened up new areas for discussion and for reflection for all of us.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. This conversation reminds me that ultimately, we can't escape the impact of our past. I mean, it made us who we are and the ways we learn to interact with the world during our impressionable early years will always be with us. But the good news is that the plasticity of neural pathways in the brain lets us practice new approaches and we can overcome the awkwardness of learning a new skill. We can know that's just part of it not doing anything wrong, and we can take charge of the way we communicate with people around us, and we can do it in a way that we can really feel confident about and all the people said Amen.
Speaker 1:Thank you for spending time with us today. The resources and materials we've mentioned are linked in the show notes and on Facebook at Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 2:What are your thoughts about college and recovery from high demand religion? We know you have your own questions and experiences and we want to talk about the topics that matter to you. Share them with us at uncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom. At uncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom. That's uncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.
Speaker 1:If you enjoyed today's show and found value in it, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast app. This helps others find the show While you're there. Subscribe to our podcast so you never miss an episode Until next time.
Speaker 2:Stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward.
