Uncovered: Life Beyond
Join the conversations of Rebecca and Naomi, two ex-Amish Mennonite women who jumped the proverbial fence in their younger years and later experienced college as first-gen, non-traditional students. They discuss pursuing formal education while raising a family, navigating the hidden curriculum of academia, and other dimensions of reimagining a life beyond high-demand religion. Send your questions to uncoveredlifebeyond@gmail.com.
Uncovered: Life Beyond
46. Unpacking Baggage: 6 Truths for Healing Religious Harm
What advice would we give our younger, deconstructing selves if we could go back in time a decade or two? Join us, Rebecca and Naomi, as we reflect on the process of discovering ourselves beyond the confines of a prescribed religious identity. Inspired by an Instagram post by religious harm recovery coaches Cara and Rachael, we share six transformative insights that anyone redefining their identity might find helpful. From embracing emotions like anger as a powerful healing force to challenging the narrative that women must maintain relationships at any cost, we explore how letting go of guilt and shame can reveal deeper truths about ourselves and the world around us. In the process, we found that embracing the reality of our humanity and accepting that mistakes are unavoidable didn't destroy our lives as we'd been warned, but instead opened a path to authenticity and meaningful relationships.
Cara and Rachael, Religious Harm Recovery Coaches
IG: @happywholeway
Resources we should have mentioned:
The Dance of Anger by Harriet Lerner
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This is Rebecca and this is Naomi. We're 40-something moms and first cousins who know what it's like to veer off the path assigned to us.
Speaker 2:We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college and career, as we questioned our faith traditions while exploring new identities and ways of seeing the world.
Speaker 1:Without any maps for either of us to follow. We've had to figure things out as we go and appreciate that detours and dead ends are essential to the path Along the way, we've uncovered a few insights we want to share with fellow travelers.
Speaker 2:We want to talk about the questions we didn't know who to ask and the options we didn't know we had.
Speaker 1:So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking things up, we are here to cheer you on and assure you that the best is yet to come. Welcome to Uncovered Life Beyond. Hello everyone, Welcome back to Uncovered Life Beyond. This is Naomi.
Speaker 2:And this is Rebecca. So here we are, our second week in Look at us showing up. I feel like we have to celebrate this every chance we get.
Speaker 1:I know, I know as sad as that is. Well, you know, this week I came across a post on Instagram that caught my eye and I sent it to you and said, hey, we should talk about this.
Speaker 2:And I said, yes, we should.
Speaker 1:So it's an Instagram post titled Six Things I Wish I Knew when I Left the Church 19 Years Ago, and it's by Kara and Rachel, religious harm recovery coaches. I'm not really familiar with this account and with Kara and Rachel, but I follow them on Facebook, or at least their stuff is coming up in my feed on Facebook, or at least their stuff is coming up in my feed, and their handle on IG is at happyholeway and we'll link all this up in the show notes. But yeah, these six things really resonated with us and we thought maybe they would resonate with some of our listeners too.
Speaker 2:And I think it's kind of important maybe to point out that while the title says when I left the church, I think things, these ideas, these concepts would be helpful even if a person didn't leave church.
Speaker 1:Or if you're leaving the Amish Mennonite community, or if you're leaving Some kind of distinctive community, or it could even be like a place of work or something, some kind of identity that has been really central in your life and you're kind of reconfiguring all that.
Speaker 2:Right, because probably like if I were titling this, I would say six things I wish I knew when I started deconstructing 19 years ago. There you go, there you go. I think. Anytime we start changing or challenging old narratives and in some way recreating ourselves, I think these points are very important to remember.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so. The first one is your anger is going to heal you. You've been taught to be a good little girl and push it down for so long. It's okay to be angry for as long as you need. It won't always feel like this Wow, they just jumped right in, didn't they?
Speaker 1:Kind of did jumped right in, didn't they Kind of did you know? I think anger is often demonized in a lot of religious spaces, especially when it's seen as it's necessarily going to hurt someone. It's seen as you have to either tamp it down and repress it and do all that, or you're going to be. If you feel your anger, you're necessarily going to be destructive, and there's no processing it.
Speaker 2:There's no processing it. But also I find it so fascinating that in religious communities often anger is the one emotion men are allowed to have.
Speaker 1:But it's the emotion that women are most demonized for. In fact, if a woman is harmed and gets angry, that anger invalidates the harm she experienced. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think the truth is like these emotions will tell you so much about yourself. Emotions like anger and resentment inform me of what's going on and I think sometimes it can be so uncomfortable and unpleasant to sit in those emotions, but I think it is probably one of the best gifts we can give to ourselves to sit with it.
Speaker 1:Right, because sitting with it doesn't necessarily mean lashing out, it doesn't necessarily mean doing anything destructive, but it means to radically accept.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I am angry, and maybe that does mean screaming out in the woods or somewhere or into a pillow or whatever that might be, but just acknowledging it and feeling that feeling in our body and not trying to run away from it.
Speaker 1:It's a skill that I think few of us were raised with, and yet not only for anger, but also, yeah, for other things like resentment, grief, sadness, you know, just a whole host of things. And I think so often we go right to either spiritual bypassing, where we want to do a shortcut to everything will work out, or you know God won't give you anything more than you can bear, or whatever cliche is applied, or that I mean we're just, we're scared of these emotions because we're afraid if we acknowledge them, then they're going to, they're going to be with us forever and we're going to be miserable forever. And the reality is that when we process those emotions so often like they actually don't hang around that long, when you sit with them and acknowledge them and think about what they're signaling, and I think these emotions are truth tellers and it's important that we pay attention.
Speaker 1:Right, and I think one of the reasons this can happen or like we can have the freedom to do this when we leave a say, a high demand, religious community or something like that is it might be the first time when we aren't needing to defend ourselves from blame or shame. It might be the first time that we're free to process and to just say, yeah, I'm angry, I'm mad, I'm bitter, yeah, and say that with the full confidence that you're still a person who's worthy of dignity and respect, being treated with dignity and respect.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:That's a new concept for a lot of us it's a new concept and it's so very important. So number two is your religious programming doesn't fully go away just because you left the church. There will still be things that bring those old beliefs back up to the surface. And don't panic, this is totally normal. There are ways to help with this. And boy howdy, isn't this true? It's so interesting to me how things you haven't thought about songs, you haven't thought about, verses you haven't thought about, like boom, all of a sudden it pops up and you can quote a whole chapter. Yes, but then also, I think, just ideologies. I'm watching one of my kids date without any of the purity culture expectations. The child has no concept of purity culture and it's fascinating how those my expectations or not expectations, but my knee-jerk belief, my knee-jerk belief of what dating should look like, which I know is false but yet watching this child move through the relationship without a concept of that is just so interesting.
Speaker 1:And Is it like you become aware of default settings that you didn't even realize were still there?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, and it's like, even though you know these default settings are wrong and not at all what you even believe, they're still there.
Speaker 1:And I think sometimes we're surprised by them. But I also see this sometimes in, maybe, conversations that folks who are in more mainstream contexts Maybe they're watching a documentary or reading a book about someone who has left a high demand religious community or something like that and sometimes there seems to be this assumption that when they leave, a switch is flipped and they are now automatically going to see everything like a white middleclass American. And the reality is those early experiences have such a strong influence on how we think, how we process things, how we approach life, how we approach relationships, and we often don't become aware of those default settings until something comes along, just like what you were describing, and brings it to our attention and it's unrealistic to expect that somehow those past experiences aren't going to affect us. But then the good news is that our neural pathways are changeable plastic they are. You know, we aren't stuck being that same person. We can. We can change these things.
Speaker 2:Which kind of takes us to our next point.
Speaker 1:You'll spend many years trying to fix yourself because your religious programming so deeply convinced you that you are broken, there's nothing to fix. The moment you realize that your job is to care for, not cure yourself, everything will shift within you. Whoa, yeah, this is the one. This is the one that really hit me. Yeah, because this is one of those pathways, one of those concepts, those default settings that has stuck with me for a long time. I mean, I'm such a sucker I have been such a sucker for self-help books and I've learned to moderate but more importantly is realizing like, oh, I'm not defective. When there is an issue, when I feel anger, for example, or resentment or something like that, it's not like, oh, that anger or that resentment needs to be cured and needs to be ejected, but that it's trying to tell me something and I need to care for myself. And it's probably telling me, it's probably bringing to my attention something that has not been cared for, that needs attention. How's this manifested itself in your life?
Speaker 2:Oh, this has been huge for me, because I deeply bought into the logic that if I do the right thing, if I can just magically do the right thing, that that will free God to work in other people's lives. And so when relationships were difficult, I automatically assumed that I needed to fix myself. And so Rebecca would scurry off to the therapist and truly attempt to fix whatever was broken inside herself and for whatever it's worth. I think we should pay attention to who typically goes to the therapist first. I truly think we need to pay attention to this, because I think a lot of weight is put on women to hold relationships together, To absorb to absorb all the the impact, absorb all the tension, absorb all that and compensate for it, and compensate for it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I finally actually had a therapist look at me and almost chuckle and say oh honey, there is no way you can fix yourself properly. You're the only one who wants this fixed. And it was in that moment that I realized this right here was in that moment that I realized this, right here, and I just think it's so very important that we recognize this and start viewing ourselves with care and compassion and quit holding responsibility for relationship dynamics that are not ours to hold. And when we find ourselves in relationships where we're the only one who wants things to change, I think that is our first sign that maybe we have a problem.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe we're going in different directions. Yeah, yeah, that's a tough, that is a tough reality to accept. Well, and I think one of the things that we had chatted about too was that deconstruction, deconstructing, goes so much deeper than behavior modification. And I think part of that sense, of that sense that we have to fix this problem, we have to cure ourselves, is about behavior modification.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and when we make this shift, it changes how we see the problem or what we see as the problem right, so that instead of this view where I'm the problem, clearly I'm not doing something right, either I've sinned in my life or I'm not following the formula correctly and immediately with that problem comes guilt and shame for being human, and it and it shuts us down, it keeps us quiet as long as we possibly can, because so we don't have to reveal our guilt and shame to everyone else. But this shift helps us see, oh wait, no, there's a problem here and I don't need to feel guilt and shame about it. I can work on it, I can get curious about it, I can pay attention to it and try to figure out what it's trying to tell me, and I can do that without feeling that sense of guilt and shame.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I think that deconstruction and use whatever word you want, but I think the process of deconstruction scares people with power and in leadership. When I see someone on social media railing about the evils of deconstruction, I just think, oh, that's someone who's grasping for power. Oh, that's someone who's grasping for power. Guilt and shame is the currency the church holds. That's the currency that they hold to keep people in line. And deconstruction changes things at a deeper level and it changes the way you think, it changes the way you process and I just think it's really important that we let go of that guilt and shame.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when we have that sense of guilt and shame, it automatically brings our focus back on what did I do wrong, right, and when we let go of that, then we can get other parts of the problem. We can look beyond that and that doesn't serve the folks who want to keep us.
Speaker 2:But then you can start calling out the pollution that's going on in the environment. Ooh, that's a problem? Yeah, it is, and I think it's so basic, even down to like an easy one to point at. Is sexuality? It's a part of being human, but somehow the church has taken this and made the range of what is acceptable sexual activity so incredibly narrow that it sets people up to fail, but then they double down in the guilt and then it becomes this vicious cycle of people being controlled again by their guilt. But the problem, the real problem, still exists. Whether it is objectifying women, whether it is, you know, whatever it is, it is objectifying women, whether it is you know whatever whatever it is, those objectifying women, whether it's done through porn or through purity culture right.
Speaker 1:Either way, women are objectified.
Speaker 2:Right, but rarely do we talk, rarely do religious leaders talk about that issue. Rather, they want to talk about the evils of porn or the jazz bells in the street, instead of getting real about are we valuable or not?
Speaker 1:Right, and I think in those situations, usually talking about abuse or bringing it up, pointing it out, is a much larger transgression than the abuse itself, and absolutely. And the problem and I think that's because how those systems see that abuse, what they see as the problem of the abuse, is not that someone's hurt, not that someone's harmed, not that someone's been taken advantage of, but it's that. Oh well, it's because something outside the acceptable range has taken place. That's the offense, and so that power differential between the person who was harmed and the predator is not acknowledged and that makes it very easy for that person with less power, the person who was harmed, to become the scapegoat. And I don't need to. Anyone who's paying attention to the news knows that no institution, religious or secular, is immune from this kind of thing happening. The thing is that in a lot of religious institutions this dynamic is reinforced in the name of God and victims are further harmed in the name of God, and there's no effort to stop this harm. That's.
Speaker 2:Right, it's damning, it's damning and I worry that if the church doesn't get a handle on that, and fast, they're going to continue to shrink, they're going to continue to get smaller be actively protecting predators.
Speaker 1:You know, it's not just. I mean, for a long time it's been we don't know, we don't know. And now it turns out more and more do know, they knew and they've been looking out not for the, not for the vulnerable. They've been looking out for the predators, yep and and it's they're. They're losing, losing credibility fast and the numbers show it.
Speaker 2:Which brings me to one of my theories. I think that it's the scapegoats that tend to leave first. Often, the scapegoat is criticized.
Speaker 1:critiqued Because they're the truth teller.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're the truth teller. You know, I think the scapegoat lives in a world, you know, some people live in a world where they see the world as it could be, so they romanticize. You know, I think the scapegoat lives in a world, you know, some people live in a world where they see the world as it could be, so they romanticize, you know, whatever. And then some people live in a world where they see the world as it is. But I think the scapegoat maybe lives in both. They can see the world as it is, but they can also see it as it could be, as it should be, as it's been promised, yeah. But they can also see it as it could be, as it should be, as it's been promised, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think oftentimes the scapegoat kind of believes at first that they are the problem, and so they attempt to fix things and in that process they become, they immerse themselves in self-help, in therapy, whatever it is, whatever it is, they become healthier. And then it's like, oh, and suddenly they realize that maybe they aren't the problem. But then guess what? You're demonized for leaving, and there's a whole new narrative, because now you've left. And I'm always fascinated at how toxic or dysfunctional families, dysfunctional communities have to have their scapegoats.
Speaker 1:Right, and I think when you often scratch beneath the surface, you find like yes, they were the truth tellers, so they have to be demonized, so people won't treat them with dignity and respect, so they won't be be heard. But then also, by leaving Right, they've. They've stopped trying to conform, they've stopped trying to meet expectations, and that is also taken to offense. But here's the other thing, though, that I think is really important is to recognize how almost reflexive this is, like you would think everybody's following the same playbook because it's so predictable, and I don't think it's necessarily being done consciously all the time. I would agree Right. And so I think sometimes we don't give enough credence to the way that things can kind of happen without any kind of official machinations. What I'm saying is like these things don't have to be explicitly stated for these dynamics to be present.
Speaker 2:Well, and if you think about it, our very theology is built on a scapegoat.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:That's right, which I think is fascinating and something that needs its own, probably five episodes, but the very way we think about our theology is based on scapegoating.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're right, you're right. So number four, based on scapegoating yeah, you're right, you're right. So number four is being hard on yourself won't change the past. The way forward is through curiosity and compassion.
Speaker 1:And I think this ties in with what we were saying a minute ago about how we don't automatically change everything when we make these shifts in life, because when we do see the world in a new way, when we have a major identity shift, it can be easy to look back and kind of call ourselves out for all the ways we did things wrong in the past, and I think that's just another avenue of shame and guilt and I just don't think that's going to do anybody any good. And I think that's just another avenue of shame and guilt and I just don't think that's going to do anybody any good. And I think recognizing we're human, accepting radically accepting I'm a human, living life without making mistakes was never an option. Mistakes are how I learn about myself in the world. That's how we can approach these things with curiosity and compassion, and it's just so much more freeing than when we see it with judgment and criticism you know, learning to live with curiosity, I just think, has been one of the best gifts I've given myself.
Speaker 2:And when you think about it, this focusing on getting things right and not making a mistake requires a focus on a formula, and that formula invariably keeps us trapped and spinning and we blame ourselves for getting it wrong, or we blame our kids, because we did the right things but now they're not doing the right things. And I think these formulas are so dang attractive. I mean, that's Dr Dobson, that's Bill Gothard, that is all these parenting theories, these, you know, the self-help gurus, yes, yes. And it keeps us in that constant hamster wheel when the truth of it, is very few of us when we think about people and relationships we truly admire and want to be with. Rarely is it the people who are perfect we're not necessarily attracted to perfection People who show up with dignity but authenticity.
Speaker 1:Transparency.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and even in parenting it's a joke to think we're going to get it right. So if we show up insisting that we've got it right and we show up trying to be perfect, we lose our ability to apologize when we get it wrong. And getting it wrong and being able to be like oh shoot, I am so sorry. I wish I would have done that differently. How did that make you feel? I mean, that is where relationships happen. But if we convince ourselves.
Speaker 2:yeah, if we convince ourselves we're getting it right and we've got the perfect formula, then we don't have to show up and bother with apologizing and I'm not so sure that leaders don't usually apologize.
Speaker 1:Or if they do it, it's very strategic yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree, and I think things really shifted for me when I stopped feeling that it was my job to keep my kids from doing immature, dumb things. I mean, let's just say it, you know, because I think it's so easy for us as parents to put pressure on ourselves that you know our children's actions are a reflection on us and so therefore, if they, if I get a call from school, there's a problem with my parenting, and for me it has been so freeing and it has made space for those relationships, for that connection to build. When I'm not surprised that immature things are happening at school and we learn from it and we grow, but also when my children are not expecting shame and blame, we can have an open conversation about it and we can talk about what would be a better way to handle the situation next time, and so there's open for learning. They're not in that flight, flight, flight, flight I can't talk fight or flight mode where they are trying to defend themselves and they can't hear anything. I'm trying to teach them.
Speaker 2:But then it also gives space for them to show up and take responsibility.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Which that is so important. I think there's a lot of adults that don't know how to show up and take responsibility for their act.
Speaker 1:Well, if making a mistake, if messing up, automatically means that I'm losing dignity and respect in the eyes of the people around me, of course we can't admit. You know, it's just the human ego is not going to allow us to admit our failures and take responsibility and do something different.
Speaker 2:And it's phenomenal what can happen when we accept our humanity, accept the humanity of people around us and, in that, accept that mistakes are part of life and that we are all still worthy of dignity and respect, even when we make a mistake at different points, by different people, and I would feel anger, maybe at them, but even more strongly I would question my value or what the role I played in it and and what you did wrong.
Speaker 1:like you're saying like what you did wrong, what you did, yeah, or like why would they?
Speaker 2:do that Like what? Why? Why would a person behave that?
Speaker 1:way, and with an assumption that your behavior is what triggered it. Yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and this kind of brings us back to the thing of being hard on yourself won't change the past and opening yourself up for curiosity and compassion. What I finally realized is yourself up for curiosity and compassion. What I finally realized is so if you get a snake bite, we're not going to go find the snake and ask the snake, why did you bite me? Why would you do that? No, we focus on healing. We focus on ridding our body of the poison. I don't know what do you do when you get bit by a snake. I don't know, it hasn't happened to me, but anyway, if I get bit by a snake, I know I'm not going to go talk to the snake.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Definitely not that.
Speaker 2:And so I think we spend a lot of time imagining a sort of apology or reconciliation or accountability. That probably is not going to happen and I think the sooner we can let go of that. And for me, in my head, this is different from forgiveness. For me, and maybe it's the same thing, but in my head it feels different. For me it was more about a curiosity of why are you blaming yourself in the first place? What if it has no reflection of you? What if it was about them? And the phrase I tell myself is what if it's not about you? What if it's not about you? And it allowed me to put a little bit of space between the hurt and the harm that was done and even maybe offer a little bit of the same curiosity and compassion to the snake Not that I necessarily want a relationship with it, but acknowledging they have their own stuff.
Speaker 2:And sometimes things that happen has so little to do about me. It's their stuff and I just happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.
Speaker 1:Right, right, yeah, I think that is so important because whether it was actually there or it's just the impression that I got, that I picked up, but it seems like so much of the material on relationships that I was raised with put the onus on me for it, and I remember even going into adulthood and feeling, really feeling a sense of failure if relationships kind of went in different directions. You know, and I remember somebody telling me you're actually at a stage in life where it's normal to kind of go in different directions from people that you've known before. Like that's not really, you don't have to keep being best friends with everybody you know, right, right, and I really appreciate that normalizing that, and because I think we can put a lot of unnecessary pressure on ourselves to feel like we have to make sure everybody likes us and we don't. They don't have to like us.
Speaker 2:And you know what? Yeah, that is one of the most freeing discoveries of my life. I don't have to be everyone's cup of tea, that's fine, but no one has to love me. No one has to expect no one has to love me, no one has to respect me, no one has to even be nice to me. But guess what? I don't have to show up for less than that either. Right, and it's like so freeing, like no one. I don't have to expect someone to value me that's fine if you don't but neither do I have to show up and convince you to do that for me.
Speaker 1:Right, right, they don't have to. Doesn't change the fact that you are worthy of respect and dignity and validation, and also you don't have to stick around for it. Nope, absolutely. I love that.
Speaker 2:I love that so much so, number five, you'll make a meaningful life for yourself Again, you'll find your people and it will be even better than you expected. Just be patient. It takes time to rebuild. Oh, this one's tough, this one's scary, but I have found it to be so true. You know, when we're following formulas, we kind of, I think, lose pieces of ourselves, and I know I certainly didn't know who I was in that mix, and I'm sure most people around me didn't know who I was, because we're all kind of trying to be the same person.
Speaker 1:Yeah, play a role, play that expected role, not stand out too much.
Speaker 2:And, weirdly enough, the more you become honest about who you are and what you want in life, I think the more people kind of get who you are and it's going to offend some people they'll walk away. But I've found that the relationships I do have, and the relationships that developed or even lasted, become much more authentic, much more real, and it's not based on that perceived expectation or the perceived narrative that we were told to be, and I think within that you develop a confidence that was missing before.
Speaker 1:Certainly not encouraged. Right right, well. And you can't have a lot of confidence when you're constantly self-doubting, when you're constantly questioning yourself.
Speaker 2:And isn't that the point?
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. You know, in listening to conversations about deconstruction from any number of religious groups or even more secular high-demand groups, something that is mentioned again and again is the sense of community that was so rewarding within the group and how that has been such a loss after leaving. I don't know how you and I hear other people who are way smarter than me and have way more experience in working with groups than I do, who say the same thing that it's almost impossible to keep that sense of community that many of us screw up with without the guilt and shame that you need to keep people coming on a regular basis, and I do not like that. I sometimes that does not work for me, but I am not the only one who's observed that right, and so I think we can find community. It just might look different. It might not have that same all-encompassing sense of identity that we once had.
Speaker 1:But here's the thing there's also benefits to that. You get more privacy, sometimes when you want it, and that's also a good thing. So we absolutely will find people that we connect with, and the threat that you'll be a lost, wandering soul the rest of your life is not true. It might not be the same sense of community, but then also that's okay, and also maybe it's more realistic for life to flow. Maybe it's more realistic that our friend groups change. I know I think of friend groups. I've been in where you know life happened and I'm still living in the same place, but that friend group has changed dramatically because of all kinds of reasons. And so maybe that's life, at least life in the 21st century, and we might not like it, but I think accepting that and then figuring out where we want to go from that, where we want to go from there, might be part of the path of healing.
Speaker 2:And if I could just say this with a bit of caution, I think it's easy for those of us who leave a high demand religion that the community is often based on some sense of how we dress. I mean, we can tell most of us can tell the difference in an Amish or Mennonite group based on the pleats in the covering or the lack of pleats. I think there is a temptation to look for community based on another form of identity. So maybe the temptation is you know, you had to wear a covering, you had to wear a covering, you had to wear a covering. Finally you're not wearing a covering and so you might look for people who now also don't wear a covering and you might even discuss how much freedom you have now that you're not wearing a covering and you kind of build this new identity or you built this new community based on not wearing a covering. That identity is just as fickle as what you just left.
Speaker 2:Not that it's not okay to have those conversations, of course you can. But there are good, valuable, wonderful people in my life whose friendships I deeply value, who are still wearing a covering and they're just as free as I am and they're just as free as I am. So I think we need to be really careful. Back to our first. Was it our first point where we talked about our knee jerk reaction?
Speaker 2:Oh the second point, or religious programming. That religious programming I think is so deep and the way we see the world, I think often shows up that way, and I think when we look at community, perhaps that is the way we think we're going to build community and I think there's space for that. But I think we need to be really super careful Because I am telling you, if you truly believe that somehow you have a closer relationship to God because you are covered or uncovered or whatever you are in between, that kind of frightens me a little bit.
Speaker 1:You know, I think this is such an important point for a lot of high demand groups, groups that take their religious commitments super, super seriously, and their identity, that conformity to the group norms I mean, which you know. The irony of this, of course, is that we prided ourselves on being not conformed to the world, but conformity to the group was paramount, like that was, that was core. And when we are so, when we, when we, our default is to assume that sameness is where we're going to find our people. I think we are. It's, it's one of those knee jerk reactions that limits us.
Speaker 1:And Dr Becky Becky Kennedy, she is the parenting guru. She talks about how we do this so often and like, just like, without even meaning to like, when talking with children, like we'll say, oh, look, we're wearing the same color and we, you know, we emphasize that. And she talks about making a conscious effort to point out oh, you like that flavor, I like this flavor. Isn't that cool? We both like different flavors, yeah, and I think being aware that difference was not celebrated and that we might have to make a conscious effort to shift, that, I think, can open up a lot of possibilities, can open up a lot of opportunities for friendships and relationships and connections that we might not have otherwise considered and perhaps even real growth.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And, to be fair, there is something magical about being with people who you don't have to explain your past to, who you don't have to explain your knee-jerk reactions to Look at us, right, or you don't have to explain why. In this moment, this Bible verse came to my mind. Look, as silly as it is, this is the verse I'm thinking about. We all laugh and we move on. There is that, that, that that is important. It's so important, oh, yeah, yeah, and valuable, but that is not the best indicator of true community either, right.
Speaker 1:There are other. There are other bases for a basis for community Correct.
Speaker 2:And I think it's easy for us who have left that high demand type of group to assume that when we find other people where there is that sameness, that that's where we're going to find true community Right.
Speaker 1:And I think it's the kind of thing where, if we give ourselves an opportunity to find connections with people who, on the surface appear to be very different, yeah, you can find connections there. I mean.
Speaker 1:I just think of like some, you know, some of my international friends from college who you know grew up in dramatically different settings than I did. You know, and, and and and. Yet there were things we could connect on and we're still in contact today and still connect on and it's incredibly enriching. So, yeah, it's becoming aware of that emphasis on sameness and breaking out of it, I think, is really really valuable, yeah, and for whatever it's worth.
Speaker 2:In my space, don't be too hard on someone who still wears a head covering. Like I just don't have much. I don't have any space for someone who mocks that. At the same time, I don't have space for someone who judges someone for not wearing it. Don't mock someone who, for whatever reason, decides to still wear a head covering.
Speaker 1:Right, and I just thought about something you know, I know when I was making a lot of changes in my early 20s and I remember coming to a point where I realized how futile it was to expect everybody to agree with me, because I didn't know how long I was going to agree with me. Right, and I think that's a factor here too. Yeah, absolutely so. Number six, the last item, and I think we've got a lot to say about this one you feel so much loss because religion met so many core needs, like community, as we were just talking about. Now it's time to understand how to start meeting them for yourself. This is a big one. This is one of those shifts that may not. This is one of those shifts that goes so much deeper than behavior modification and it really can change everything, because it turns so much of what we were taught how we are to be in the world and how we are to relate to people around us.
Speaker 2:It just turns it on its head Because, instead of being self-sacrificing, endlessly self-sacrificing we start paying attention to our core needs and being very intentional about how we're going to get them met ourselves, first of all, about and about what we want, and then being brave enough to voice those out loud is scary, but I think it is so important. And back to knee jerk reactions and deeply embedded, you know, beliefs. Many of us have been laughed at for expressing it, and so being brave enough to try again and to be honest about that is difficult, but I really encourage all of us to try it again and to be honest, because I think this is really kind of where it all starts.
Speaker 1:Right, and sometimes it's about being honest with ourselves and making those shifts without telling others Right, and then sometimes it is about voicing them kind of depending on what the situation might be. But I think it's. It really changes everything when we realize you know what they can laugh. And that doesn't make these things unimportant and we are not asking too much to expect that the people that we love, people that love us who say to they love us, that they take our emotions, our dreams, our interests, our preferences, even just take them seriously. They may or may not comply, but at least take them seriously and not to be automatically dismissed or invalidated because they're illogical or sinful or whatever, because inconvenient. And it's not because every idea we have is so perfect, but it's because we, just like everybody else, deserve to be treated with dignity full stop. Even if we have illogical or sinful or silly ideas, we still deserve to be treated with dignity and those are not reasons to be ridiculed or dismissed or fill in the blank.
Speaker 2:And you know, I think this might be again where the feedback you get is more of an indicator of who they are and less of an indicator about who you are. The response you get is very informative to you about what type of relationship you might have with this person, and I think it's important for us to pay attention, but don't give them too much power.
Speaker 1:And I think another way that our needs can be minimized or dismissed is our financial needs. There is no virtue in our financial vulnerability. You know, if we, as grown adults, do not have access to our own funds, our own money, that's if someone else is keeping them from us. That's financial abuse and it's controlling behavior and it's not okay. And when you are in a partnership so-called partnership but one person has all the authority, that's not a partnership. Someone's being exploited or is at risk of being exploited and it is not unreasonable to take steps, whether that's setting up your own bank account, whether that is setting up a side business, setting up something on the side for your own. I'm especially thinking of someone who is maybe at home raising children and not in the paid workforce.
Speaker 1:Be wary of language about shared assets or partnership. When only one person actually gets to say what's going on. That's not okay and there's no virtue in supporting that. And you are not being selfish for saying this doesn't feel good and I want to change something about this. You are an adult and you get to decide what works for you financially and obviously in a relationship, you care about each other's needs, right? So there's like a mutual. There should be a mutual discussion. But when there's not a mutual discussion and when one person is not open to a mutual discussion, you don't have a partnership. You got something else going on.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely. So should we talk about these promises, about God's blessing that you will at some point receive for all these years of self-sacrifice?
Speaker 1:Well, can I go out on a limb here and just say it's propaganda?
Speaker 2:Or it's a carrot.
Speaker 1:It's a carrot to trick us into self-sabotage. I mean, we know how often women in the church and in other settings too, but particularly in the church women's contribution to the home, their unpaid labor is romanticized and there's all these sentimental things said about it.
Speaker 2:At least on Mother's Day.
Speaker 1:At least on Mother's Day. But here's the thing If these blessings, these long-term blessings that come, are so wonderful, why aren't those with power lining up for those long-term blessings? Why aren't those with power lining up for those long-term blessings? How come is it? Nobody wants it, except nobody's lining up for them without being told they have to.
Speaker 2:And if it's not good for the goose, it's not good for the gander, and you know, something else I finally realized was these people in leadership are often freely handing out this advice, and the expectation is that we just kind of get in line. But I started watching and observing and I realized these leaders also make a lot of mistakes.
Speaker 2:They don't pay the same price for a mistake, though, that some of us others would, and I think a lot of these rules and expectations that are set up for us, that come with this promise of God blessing us, come with this sense of protection, this sense of safety that's going to be given to us and to some degree that is true as long as you stay in line, as long as you don't make any mistakes and I think so so like if someone has $5,000 in their bank account and they make a $5 mistake, it's not going to cost them the same as if someone has $50 in their account and makes a $5 mistake. It looks different and I think social equity is a little bit the same way, and I worry when we are told that God is going to bless or reward us for doing this little specific thing and your safety is only guaranteed as long as you don't make a mistake, Because I think a loving, a truly loving parent, a truly loving God has space for humanity and for the mistakes that are going to happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and if there's not room for that, then we've got bigger problems. I think that this is where boundaries comes in, in terms of, you know, taking responsibility for the things that we can control and recognizing the things that we can't. We can't control others' emotions, others' actions. We can't control any of that we can't even control other people's love. Right, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. There is nothing you can do to make someone else love you. There is nothing you should do to make someone else love you 100%, 100%.
Speaker 1:Leaning into the things that you can influence, though, I think is so often the very thing we were told not to touch.
Speaker 1:And I think that for someone like me who was raised with this really strong teaching about being under authority and all that and all the dangers of stepping out from under that authority, it's taken me too long to learn not to give the power to direct my life to someone who will never experience the consequences of those decisions. It's far, far better to take responsibility for messing things up than to live a lifetime of resentment for taking somebody's crappy advice that I have so much more regret for the things I didn't say, for the stands I didn't take, for the needs I didn't stand up for, than for the ones that I did or for the times I misspoke. But the important thing is that you have to live with the consequences of, say, not getting an education. You have to live with the consequences of, say, not having a career, a way of making earning money, fill in the blank. You have to live with those long-term consequences. Who to marry? You have to live with those long-term consequences. Don't let anyone else make those decisions for you.
Speaker 2:And all the people said amen. The people said amen Absolutely. And, and you know, I think there is a level where it is really scary to start taking responsibility for your own life. It is really scary. It's something most of us weren't taught to do. We don't have the skills necessarily to do that and know that in the process you're going to make mistakes, you're going to get it wrong and it's okay. It is okay. Trust your process, trust your gut, Trust your intuition. Embrace the mistakes. I think mistakes typically just tend to be a reminder to pivot to change, reminder to pivot to change. Nothing wrong with that. It doesn't devalue you. It doesn't mean you're dumb. No matter what happens in the process, you are still worthy of dignity, you are still worthy of respect and long term, I think you're going to be glad you made those choices.
Speaker 1:Mic drop. I think that's a great place to wrap up this conversation. Thank you all so much for hanging out with us this afternoon. Wish you all the best and go make some mistakes. We'll be thinking of you, you can do it and we'll be cheering you on, that's for sure. Take care and we'll see you soon.
Speaker 2:Thank you for spending time with us today. The resources and materials we've mentioned are linked in the show notes and on Facebook at Uncovered Life Beyond what?
Speaker 1:are your thoughts about college and recovery from high demand religion. We know you have your own questions and experiences and we want to talk about the topics that matter to you. Share them with us at uncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom. That's uncoveredlifebeyond atgmailcom. That's uncoveredlifebeyondatgmailcom.
Speaker 2:If you enjoyed today's show and found value in it, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast app. This helps others find the show While you're there. Subscribe to our podcast so you never miss an episode Until next time stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward.
