Uncovered: Life Beyond
Join the conversations of Rebecca and Naomi, two ex-Amish Mennonite women who jumped the proverbial fence in their younger years and later experienced college as first-gen, non-traditional students. They discuss pursuing formal education while raising a family, navigating the hidden curriculum of academia, and other dimensions of reimagining a life beyond high-demand religion. Send your questions to uncoveredlifebeyond@gmail.com.
Uncovered: Life Beyond
45. Christmas Dreams vs. Reality: Embracing the Holiday We Actually Got
We, Rebecca and Naomi, sit down to recap our holidays and reflect on the ways traditions and expectations have evolved over the years. Somewhere between the low-frills Christmas traditions of our background and the extravagant expectations of Pinterest and Instagram today, can we make meaningful memories without sacrificing Mom's sanity in the process? Is it better to sacrifice spontaneity to get the precise gift we want or is it worth the risk to trust that our oved ones have been attentive to our likes and dislikes? And who is supposed to fill the adults' stockings, anyway?
We also celebrate the beginning of Rebecca's last semester of college and the dogged determination that has brought her so far. Naomi recalls her advice to her college-bound daughter about handling the pressure to choose the "right" college and how to respond to the never-ending question about what her major is going to be (when the decision is still years away).
Links mentioned in the show:
Jews for Jesus, for Just One Day (This American Life podcast)
The Secret to Gift-Giving (Hidden Brain podcast)
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This is.
Speaker 2:Rebecca, and this is Naomi. We're 40-something moms and first cousins who know what it's like to veer off the path assigned to us.
Speaker 1:We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college and career, as we questioned our faith traditions while exploring new identities and ways of seeing the world.
Speaker 2:Without any maps for either of us to follow. We've had to figure things out as we go and appreciate that detours and dead ends are essential to the path Along the way, we've uncovered a few insights we want to share with fellow travelers.
Speaker 1:We want to talk about the questions we didn't know who to ask and the options we didn't know we had.
Speaker 2:So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking things up, we are here to cheer you on and assure you that the best is yet to come.
Speaker 1:Welcome to Uncovered.
Speaker 2:Life Beyond. Hello everyone, Welcome back to Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 1:This is Naomi and this is Rebecca. Look at us.
Speaker 2:We're back again. You know I don't like how often we start an episode congratulating ourselves for like finally getting on the mic ourselves, for like finally getting on the mic. I mean, my one consolation is that, you know, some of the podcasts I've listened to the longest have gone through times periods where it was like a whole year between episodes. The big boo cast, but but now they're regular.
Speaker 1:So I'm like maybe one day, one day, hey, and you know what? If? If the best we do is congratulate ourselves, or is that the worst we do?
Speaker 2:Anyway, if this is where we get to congratulate ourselves, let's just roll with it Absolutely, absolutely Well, and you know I feel a lot of internal pressure to be professional, yeah, but the reality is like the kinds of podcasts and blogs I like to listen to a lot of the time is the raw stuff, the real stuff, you know, like it's not the polished stuff yeah, isn't it weird how how we feel this pressure for perfectionism but then in reality, few people are really attracted to perfectionism.
Speaker 1:Like, yes, a perfect world, you can't. Yeah, like if someone's absolutely perfect and all they do, you can't really compete with it. Right, and it feels I don't know, off-putting or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I I agree. It's like a distance, it creates a distance. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, but don't we identify with the human part of people?
Speaker 2:Right, right. But I think we all have, or many of us have, a critic, have an inner critic, and that is what we're responding to, more than the reality that you're talking about, because we're trying to we're trying what we don't want to give our inner critic something to criticize us for.
Speaker 1:You know, in another conversation with another friend, I thought about Brene Brown again and her work with vulnerability and shame, with vulnerability and shame, and she talks about how these you know business people want her to come in and talk to them. But they asked that she doesn't talk about vulnerability and shame, rather they're. She's supposed to talk about innovation and production, and she's like and production, and she's like vulnerability is what produces innovation. You can't have innovation without that. And that gave me like this I mean, isn't that kind of affirming, oh, my goodness?
Speaker 2:Oh, I agree oh man, there's so many applications, yeah, so many applications of that so many parts of our lives, whether it's work or education, or families or church or wherever there's so much emphasis, there can be so much emphasis on performance and it's not safe for vulnerability and therefore nothing new Right, nothing innovative happens?
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, and I think even the way we were taught, you know to carefully consider any choices you make and let no man despise thy youth. You know all that. All those narratives, almost like, freeze you from doing anything because, man, you don't want to make mistakes either and screw up your whole life.
Speaker 2:Right, right. And there's this narrative that somehow you're supposed to be able to not screw up your life. Right, right no-transcript.
Speaker 1:It's about trying again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's yeah, well, I talk with my students about this in terms of writing all the time and and I like the example and you had mentioned it also when we were talking earlier you know when, when a kid takes their first step, the very next thing that happens is they fall over, and yet all the grownups cheer.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:You know. But how we treat that kind of thing as we get older is like well, I guess you're just not, I guess walking is just not your thing. Right, because you fell down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess walking is just not your thing, right, because you fell down, yeah. Or if you color outside the lines, well, obviously you're not an artist, or?
Speaker 2:you know whatever.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow. So here we are at the beginning of January. Maybe we should talk about the holidays and how well they lived up to our expectations.
Speaker 1:Oof. Anyway, how were your holidays?
Speaker 2:They were good. After finals were done, then it was like a mad dash to get everything ready and I'm going what Mad dash? No, I'll take that back. I didn't have enough energy to do any mad dashes.
Speaker 1:Hey, you know to be fair and let's give credit where credit is due. I am realizing how, as a student, finals are exhausting, but I think as a professor, it has to be even more exhausting. Well, and as a professor, it goes a week or two longer.
Speaker 2:A few days. Yeah, yeah, it can it can yeah? It's just different. Yeah, yeah, it can, it can. Yeah, it's just different yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I know, I know, until finals are finally finished for me, I'm just like, oh, I'm tired.
Speaker 2:Right, it's like there's there's a clarity in ignoring everything else except finals or whatever it is on your plate, but the thing is, when that's over, then you've got all this, all these piles of stuff that you've everything else everything else slaps you in the face, right, right, and, and, and.
Speaker 2:At that point I don't, I want to break, I don't want to, I don't want to. But anyway, yeah, it was good. I had Christmas with the children here a few days before, and then we drove to Oklahoma and had Christmas with my family there, and that was good. It was well. Now that there are how many grandchildren I've lost count? There are how many grandchildren I've lost count? And great-grandchildren and in-laws, and just layers and layers of different situations. I mean just, you know just all the complications, dynamics.
Speaker 1:It's all good Dynamics, dynamics, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so it's. So, it's just it's good. It was good, it was great, but but it was just a lot. And I know on the last day I was sitting there at the lunch table and it was just like, all at once all the sounds were just like coming in on me. I was like it's time to go home. But I mean and as a kid you know that din of dozens and dozens of people was I loved it, right. But but yeah, I'm, I could only take so much of it now, and nobody was misbehaving. You know, everybody. Everything was great. It wasn't that, it was just like I realized how I guess how much my social muscles have have atrophied in recent years social muscles have have atrophied in recent years.
Speaker 1:Well, is there? Is there a difference between being a kid who's part of the chaos and being an adult who's supposed to organize? Well, or?
Speaker 2:manage was responsible right the chaos, I mean right because I was responsible for getting me and my kids on the road and also they didn't want to leave, and so we were trying to push it as far as we could.
Speaker 1:So you're managing emotions, along with the chaos. Right.
Speaker 2:But it was good. Now, on the way there, I had some car trouble, so that was exciting. Shoot way there, I had some car trouble, so that was exciting. But you know Oklahoma, I've got complicated feelings about Oklahoma's politics, but or maybe not so complicated, but anyway. But I cannot say enough good things about the people that I ran into. Well, the people I found when I, when my car was in, the oil light was coming on and it was fine then. But there were a couple of garages that I stopped by on the way in northern Oklahoma, just south of the Kansas line, and they were just incredibly gracious and generous with their time and so yeah, so it we got, we eventually got there.
Speaker 1:Humanity.
Speaker 2:Humanity redeems themselves in ways right, yeah, I mean there was a outline of an AK-47 up on the garage wall which made me kind of a little uncomfortable for all the layers of things that it might represent, Right. And yet, you know, this guy was incredibly gracious and generous.
Speaker 2:He decided not to use it on you. No, no, I mean, I fully benefited from my white privilege, also knowing that I was headed to see family, that my family lived in Western Oklahoma. That also added to my credibility and so, yeah, I was very grateful for that. Anyway, tell me about your.
Speaker 1:Christmas. It sounds a lot the same. Actually. It was kind of funny because typically either over Thanksgiving or Christmas I'll kind of do like a friend's thing and just invite whomever.
Speaker 2:Like an open house or something. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, whoever might not have a place to go, you know, and this year I was like Thanksgiving I was just tired, like I was just like I had no mental space for it, and I'm like, okay, I'll do something over Christmas. Didn't happen then either. Like, yeah, I had no mental space for it and I'm like, okay, I'll do something over Christmas. Didn't happen then either. Like, yeah, I don't know, my mental space was shot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was going a lot of other directions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but yeah, christmas itself was kind of low key, which was nice. We took the kids to see the Trans-siberian orchestra, which was fun awesome um cool.
Speaker 1:I I always forget how much I like like rock concerts, uh-huh, like, and I don't know what it is, but yeah, I really do like my rock concerts. Spoken like a true 80s, yeah, kid, or is it 90s? Whatever, probably all blends together both. Yeah, yeah, um, but then we traveled to Pennsylvania as well, and we're there with family. We got a really nice Airbnb and so, yeah it was. It was low-key, had fun stuff, went bowling, you know, and I keep thinking about how, and I think, if, if, I could do anything over, and we did some of this when the kids were younger, and it's harder when kids are younger, or it can be harder, but experiences, I think, really are more memorial than memorable. Yes, then then gifts, but yet you have to have gifts for them to open, to which?
Speaker 1:is kind of a yeah, but I, I, I wish, I think, I wish we would have done more of that type of thing. But then again, you know you've got your resources.
Speaker 2:So you know that's well, and I know when my kids were younger, I think I maybe rushed the season in terms of taking them to things, and then I realized like, oh wait, this is not fun for anyone.
Speaker 1:And then and now, all at once they are, they're out of that stage like they're not into but, like, can we talk about the expectations like I remember I mean so, like, let's get real about it. I was helping another mom, um, with her daughter in elementary school and mean you have your spirit days all of December. You have the gifts you have to buy for your teachers or for your kids as teachers. You have the gifts exchange, which is all good stuff, yeah, but that's just school stuff, yeah. And then you have decorations, and then you have baking 10 different types of cookies that can be a part of the expectations, plus all the gift giving and the organizing of the gift giving and gift lists and gift lists, and then extended family stuff. It can be overwhelming, overwhelming. And so, till you get all of that done, to plan a family outing is is exhausting. I mean, like there's only so much mental space left, right, and I also realize like sometimes it feels like you're expected to be this Mary Poppins slash Santa Claus, but you're doing it on a budget.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you don't even have the magic to go with it, right? And so many young families.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, are that perfect storm of all those things coming together at once.
Speaker 1:Right, have all that and then take into consideration all the um oftentimes with extended family.
Speaker 1:There just simply are dynamics at play that can make holiday experiences stressful. Right, who likes who, who's mad at who, who's a better christian, who's a bad christian, who you know what, whatever it is. And till you get all of that other stuff managed and then you roll into this, into the interpersonal relationships and those dynamics, it can be a lot. It can be exhausting, like I remember it, taking me almost all of jan and February to like emotional, emotionally, get my bearings.
Speaker 2:Wow, wow, yeah, yeah, that's a lot, that's a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think something that maybe it's a little bit more superficial but doesn't help is that reality can never rival what we can imagine, and so, when it comes to expectations, we're almost set up to fail, and I think it's just been within the last couple of years that I realized oh wait, maybe that's maybe if my child is disappointed, if they feel a sense of like oh that's it, a sense of letdown after all the presents are opened.
Speaker 2:Maybe it's more about the fact that expectations are real. Life can hardly ever live up to our expectations, and maybe that's just part of it and not doesn't necessarily mean I did things you know.
Speaker 1:I did Christmas wrong. And I think that's a really good point. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I know I think it was last year that my son what did he say? He expressed a level of delight that I've never seen before, and I had almost given up on it. You thought you'd never see this delight.
Speaker 2:I thought I'd never see it, and I was so happy to see that for once he didn't seem disappointed, and you know, I mean that speaks to his imagination Well, and probably maturity. Well, that too, that too, and I've started trying to talk with them about it beforehand. Now I read or heard somebody talking about this kind of thing and I like the idea of, you know, having something to look forward to after, so that opening the gifts isn't the end all be all and so good point yeah, yeah, and so for us.
Speaker 2:Well, we had the trip to Oklahoma, but also I had found some groupons for Dave and Buster's tickets, and so when we drove through Kansas City well, we actually ended up doing it in Des Moines we stopped on the way back and both Barrett and Liberty had like an hour and a half to enjoy Dave and Buster's. I went and went shopping somewhere else and that was something to look forward to, and Barrett has been wanting to go to Dave and Buster's for years, and so that was.
Speaker 1:But again, that's kind of implementing some experiences, like it's not just about the gifts then.
Speaker 2:Right, and so we had that to look forward to, not just the trip, but also after the trip, on the way home. Yeah, good job. Well, sometimes you just stumble into a group on.
Speaker 1:Well, and you know, I do think in many ways it does get old, it does get easier as the kids get older, right, and I think at some point I kind of realized, you know, if I can figure out one or two things that are actually important to everybody, like what does this kid find important?
Speaker 1:What does this kid actually really find important? Find important. What does this kid actually really find important? Because I mean, we're told that all these things are important, like from the cookies to the decorating, to the gifting, to the. You know all of it. And what if making Christmas cookies actually doesn't delight the souls of my children Do?
Speaker 2:we have to do that, or maybe just making a half batch of Christmas cookies is good enough.
Speaker 1:Maybe that's all they need, I guess, whether a half batch of Christmas cookies is good enough. Maybe that's all they need. I guess whether or not to make Christmas cookies really does sound kind of Amish Mennonite, doesn't it? Oh?
Speaker 2:no, I don't know. I don't think so, but I know what you mean, because that's one of the things that has come up, especially for Barrett. When we talk about what's important, about celebrating the season, what is the thing that you for sure want to do? And often they kind of my kids kind of get annoyed with me because they're like, ah, they just kind of want to be able to go with the flow, they don't want to have to think ahead and I'm like, well, do you want me to make all the decisions or do you want to participate?
Speaker 1:And if they're invested into it, or if they're invested in help make the decisions, they tend not to criticize it as much than either.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 1:Because they have a buy in.
Speaker 2:Right, Absolutely Well. And then also we didn't. We kind of ran out of time and at one point I was like, okay, do you want to make? Do you want to make them now or do you want to go do something else? I forget what else it was, and they were like eh, you know what? We're okay, Although Liberty did make some cookies, but not the, not like she kind of did it on her own, it wasn't like a decorated cookie. So yeah, if you have those conversations with them, it can kind of help make things maybe a little more flexible, or it prepares them to maybe be a little more flexible or at least plus it kind of helps you get to know your kid.
Speaker 1:I think a little bit better yeah, it kind of helps narrow the focus and instead of feeling like you have to do all the things right well, and you know, sometimes it's kind of simple things too.
Speaker 2:The other year liberty was saying you know, it just doesn't feel like Christmas, it just I don't know. She just couldn't put her finger on it. And then one day she walks in and I'd had some of the wax melts in the burner and it was like a pine scent. And she goes oh, that's it, that's it Now it feels like Christmas.
Speaker 1:So now you have that to add to the list so you can just be sure that that's done.
Speaker 2:That's pretty easy, but yeah, that's right, right, that's way easier than than some other things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah yeah, so, and if you do that, maybe you don't have to do a live christmas tree. A live christmas tree was something I gave up on. I was like, yeah, I can barely get my kids fed. Watering that stupid tree every day was going to be the death of me yeah yeah and yeah. I can't believe that I am perfectly happy with my fake Christmas tree that, by the time Christmas morning came this year, was half lit and I was good I'm. I'm like we're fizzling out, it's okay.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. That's awesome Because when I was married, we would always do a real tree, go cut down a real tree and do the whole thing. But once, yeah, once I was the only adult in the house, I was like yeah, no, and I think I got a free one off of Facebook Marketplace or something. And every year since then I think you know, I should probably upgrade. But then I realized like, no, actually anything bigger is going to be too big for my house and this is fine. And so, yeah, I put lights on it and I was going to put the other decorations on once the kids were here and somehow it just never happened. So, yeah, and I'm a fan of leaving them up after. So, like, my tree is still up. And so I, you know, because I like the coziness.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like the coziness of it through the winter, and so it feels less out of place if I don't have all the decorations on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, at some point I realized if I let the kids decorate the main tree and have my own separate tree, my house is big enough for that. Life just was smoother because they wanted to decorate it and there was a point in time. Well, you know how it is like five and six year olds just really do a crappy job of decorating the tree, but I wasn't going to tell them.
Speaker 1:It was crappy, and so finally I'm like you know what, just have at it, do your tree, that's fine, that's good. And then I had my tree, but then they also have to take it down. Ah, nice, and that's still kind of the standing arrangement and I like it.
Speaker 2:Before they go back to college, take the tree down, that's good, take the ornaments off, put it all away, like, yeah, yeah, it's part of the experience, that's part of the memory. Yeah, yeah, and you know what they can decorate a tree pretty good like yeah, oh, I bet, oh, I'm sure by now, artistic flair, artistic talent that your children have and they have fun talking about the ornaments and where they all came from.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, that's great. It's kind of like you know what. Letting go of some of the whole perfectionistic things, the things that you're like, oh my God, is that the tree we're going to have this year? Is that really what we're doing? Just letting go of it, letting it be in the long run, really does pay off. And if I could tell my younger mom self anything, I think it would be that like it's okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I have complicated thoughts about this. I'm not sure. Well, I have complicated thoughts about this, I'm not sure how much I want to go into it.
Speaker 2:Talk to me Well. So I bet I'm not the only one who has this, who had this experience, because I think about my own childhood Christmases. You the story of one year when they got to celebrate Christmas. This is a long, funny story and it was hilarious because I could identify with so much of it. You know like they were used to being the kids on the outside watching other kids, you know having visits from Santa and everything.
Speaker 2:So I guess what I'm saying there is that as an adult, I love putting up my decorations. I don't have extensive decorations, but I love doing that. I love having a tree, I love all that, but at the same time yes, I agree, it doesn't have to be all out for it to be special, especially for kids, if we're talking about making memories for kids.
Speaker 1:You know, I think you have a really good point because I think it's easy, especially as moms, to think what I want doesn't really matter. So, you know, if your kids want to trash the tree, let them have it, like whatever. And I was able to do that Like whatever. And I was able to do that, I think better, because I did have my own tree and I had space for my own tree. And way before they were cool, I also got into the ceramic, the old ceramic Christmas trees. So I think to your point, I kind of have my thing. It kind of scratches that itch, yes, which you know what? Whatever, let the kids have their tree, yes. But I think your point is really important that as a parent, as a mother, you still manage to hold on to what's important to you too.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And I think maybe where I'm coming to is that the conclusion or the synthesis of these ideas is that making memories with kids really matters, but it doesn't have to be extravagant to make them. You know, just like my own son, you know what's important to him is making cookies. Well, that's decorating cookies. I mean like that's a fairly low cost, you know, like that's not as big as a you know some expensive present or something. So I guess that's kind of where I'm coming down, that I think for myself personally, I I am glad to have something less austere at Christmas, yeah, but also that doesn't mean it has to be extravagant for it to be meaningful.
Speaker 1:I think that makes sense. It was funny. This was the first year that I realized and I'm kind of curious about you. Have you ever had a stocking?
Speaker 2:Yes, as an adult, Not this year. I've given up on adults having stockings, but let's talk about it well, no, this is the first year.
Speaker 1:I realized I'm because, because, like, growing up, obviously we didn't, and then when we got married, matt wouldn't have grown up with that either. So we just gave each other gifts, you know whatever. But then I started doing stockings for the kids and all of a sudden this year I realized I've never had a stocking and I don't know that it matters. It was just like well, I think you know, you. You read these debates about should adults have stockings and and why is mom's stocking empty, which I can have a whole conversation about that if you want. Yeah, if one partner gets a stocking, then the other partner should too.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely, and it should be filled.
Speaker 1:And if it's not, filled mom, or yeah, the empty stocking gets to take the next 24 hours and do whatever the heck they want and buy whatever the heck they want. Don't hear me saying that that's not real. Yes, but yeah, it was just an interesting thought and I was like, huh, I don't. I've never had a stocking.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so you did this year. No, oh, no, you didn't, oh, so you know it was okay.
Speaker 1:I thought maybe it was just okay, no, it was just yeah. Where I was like it was just no, it was just this year where I was like oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:Well, I would think that your children are to a point now where it could be fun for them to help fill your stocking.
Speaker 1:I'll have to ask them.
Speaker 2:Because I mean, I think that's you know stocking stuffers it's accessible kind of you know.
Speaker 2:And so they're young adults and they're doing their thing. But I guess something adjacent to that that has really sunk in for me in a way that I didn't expect the last few years is being real clear about what I want and either buying it for myself or somebody asks, telling them exactly electric drill, a cordless drill, and you know what. The fact that I knew it was coming did not diminish my pleasure at seeing it at all. And I have just found and I think other adults can identify with this that now the anticipation of Christmas is about giving the gifts rather than receiving. But I think in making space for our own experience and I know this depends on personality and varies from person to person, but I did not expect that knowing what I was getting and knowing was getting exactly what I wanted, would be as satisfying as it is- I think that that is actually really important and I fluctuate between between that, but then there's a part of me that also wants someone to know me well enough to get what I want.
Speaker 2:Mm, hmm, right oh the romance of it.
Speaker 1:I go back and forth, I go right, I like spin Because I agree with you. I absolutely agree with you.
Speaker 2:You know, I heard a really good podcast about the psychology of gift giving and the ways we think about it versus how it actually is, and that tension came up quite a bit about the surprise factor and how important that is, and somebody who was interviewed in the show said that he and his wife have a Google Doc and when something comes up that they want, one or the other wants, they put it on their list in that Google Doc, that shared Google Doc, so when their birthday or Christmas or whatever is coming up, they can the other person knows what they specifically want, but also they don't know what they're getting. So there's still an element of a surprise there, but also it's there's a confidence that it's something that the person, the recipient, is going to want, and so I thought that sounded like a really cool compromise Actually there's actually an app that I just stumbled on.
Speaker 1:I think it's called Elfster. Oh, I've heard of that. It kind of does that, and I told my family that next year they're going to have to download it and that's going to be what we're going to work from Mm-hmm, I'm not so sure that. For me, it's about the element of surprise, though, as much as like. Isn't it gratifying when someone knows you well enough that they bought something? They or they saw something they thought of. You bought it and it's like yes, that's me. Like, does that make sense? Like?
Speaker 2:I don't think it's not about the element of surprise.
Speaker 1:It has nothing to do. I think it's about the element of being known.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, I think the sad truth, rebecca, is that not many people have the gift that you do for doing that kind of thing. I think others have a really hard time. I know I do keeping up with you when it comes to that kind of thing. I agree, it's beautiful. It's beautiful. I'm just sorry You're. You're flying, you're soaring with the Eagles and the rest of us are down here with the turkeys.
Speaker 1:No, no, no no, no, I mean, and I don't know, maybe, maybe, maybe there is something to that. I don't know. I Maybe, maybe there is something to that.
Speaker 2:I don't know, I don't know, I just I just think that there's something.
Speaker 1:Really I agree, I agree with you, really cool with it, because for me, for me, it's not the element of surprise. I don't think Like when I specifically ask for something and specifically get it, I am thrilled. Yes, I got three different things this year that been on my Amazon list for probably two years, oh wow. So, yes, I'm thrilled I got a Britain, not Britney Spears, oh my God. Taylor Swift, oh, vinyl. I'm so excited.
Speaker 2:I got a Taylor Swift vinyl. I know that's so excited.
Speaker 1:That's so cool, yeah, and so yeah, like getting something you specifically want and had and asked for. I'm good with that too, like, yes, it's something I want. It was something I had a hard time spending the money for. I had some jadeite that was on my list. I got that. I'm thrilled, thrilled, thrilled, nice, thrilled, thrilled, nice, nice, um, but yeah, it's just and it's something I just think about. There's something about, I think, being known right and someone. I had a friend that sent me like a fun ceramic christmas light this year, just kind of out of the blue, and I was like, oh, so sweet, like so sweet yes, yes, yeah, no, that's wonderful, no, I agree.
Speaker 2:I wonder if some of the disappointment, the letdown after Christmas that we were talking about a minute ago with you know, especially with like with children, to those of us looking on it can look like they're just ungrateful. But I wonder to what extent it's disappointment at not being seen.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, I wonder that too.
Speaker 2:And it's more about feeling a loss of connection than about being greedy and hard to please.
Speaker 1:Right, which I think brings us back full circle, where I think is why those conversations are so important. Instead of running on the assumptions which, granted, we're busy, we're juggling a lot of different things. Assumptions are so much easier and we all do that at some level, but I think having those conversations is really important to help people feel like they are seen.
Speaker 2:I would like to think, too, that there's a way that we can give someone something that makes them feel seen, that was also on their wishlist, you know. Like there's you know what I'm saying Like there's a way that you can do that where something about the giving of it says that they do or do not see you, I think you felt that with your cordless drill.
Speaker 1:I felt that with my Taylor Swift vinyl.
Speaker 2:Well, and I got my boyfriend jeans and he likes Levi's jeans, like the old ones, and they're hard to I mean, they're impossible to find new Right and so I found some for him on Etsy and it was. It was kind of a gamble because then I was also reading that, like you can't necessarily go by the stated sizes and blah, blah, blah, all that. Anyway, they fit in perfectly and he loves them. So you know, that was something.
Speaker 2:It took some effort on my part to find them and to sort through everything that was online and so, even though he had been very clear that, that that he was wanting them and and I was asking him for details and measurements, I think the fact that they well, a, we were lucky and they fit, because I mean, he has done things like that for me too, like when I needed, I wanted something. This wasn't even a gift, but he knew I was looking for something online and was having a hard time finding it and he went and found it for me and just sent me the link. You know that was really there's effort. In that, you know, there's absolute and there's this conscious.
Speaker 1:Intention, there's effort in that, you know, there's absolute and there's this conscious intention. There's, yes and, and I think just that the idea of being thought about right like I, I knew you well enough to know you're looking for this. Look what I found like they thought of you when they saw that which, by the way, in some ways, I think that's why reels are so cool when friends send me reels, it's, it's like it's like an extension of conversations.
Speaker 1:Maybe you haven't passed, yeah and, and it's like I saw this and I thought about you is what, what is essentially being said, which I think is absolutely lovely.
Speaker 1:I mean, now, sometimes I wake up and I've got, you know, 15 different reels and I can almost not work my way through all of them, oh my goodness. But I do the same thing, though. Sure, I, you know, send. I've sent you a gazillion Uh-huh, uh-huh, and I think there's something magical in the thing of, thing of of. I saw this, I heard this and I thought of you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's part of the conversation we were having.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, you know now I'm thinking about it.
Speaker 1:Out of those 15, 10 of them were probably for me, so sorry, do not apologize, like no, no, no, no, don't apologize, it's a gift, I think every time someone sends so maybe before we wrap up we should kind of circle back around to our broader topic of education and pivoting and midlife and all that Do you want to share?
Speaker 2:I mean, you're heading into your last semester, right. Do you want to share what that's?
Speaker 1:looking like excited. I am freaked out because I think I feel a lot of the question. I get a lot. A lot is so what are you going to do with your degree, which I'm like? You know? I'm a responsible adult. I should have at least a 10 year plan for my life here with my degree.
Speaker 2:And I don't. I yeah, I have thoughts. Go ahead and finish.
Speaker 1:I have thoughts, though, so so I think there's a little bit of. I've been working so hard to get this done for so long and I don't have a 10 year plan for my life which is a very real like it's there. There's another part of me who is just so freaking proud of getting it done.
Speaker 1:Like just so freaking proud, and there's a part of me also who doesn't care if I do nothing with it ever. I have done, we have all done as good Amish, mennonite women especially and I think that it goes on to the broader community world. We do so much for other people for free that if I worked hard for this degree and never do anything with it, so be it. I know my life is better for it. It has absolutely challenged and changed the way I think about things, the way I relate to people, and it has absolutely helped me develop skills. Yeah, so whether or not I make money with it, I think is almost. I don't think that's the point. My life is better for it and that's good enough. And that's good enough.
Speaker 2:I could not agree more.
Speaker 1:And this is the first semester I have two classes that I'm so excited about. The one class that I have to take I'm not really excited about oh, it's something boring, I forget, I forget what it's called. Even I think I'm going to have to write a business plan, which actually is going to be good for me, I think, because I think I'm going to write a business plan based on my idea of a tiny home community type thing. Oh, I love it. Oh, I love it. I love it, but why does it feel so boring to me? I think all the details of it feel like overwhelming.
Speaker 2:I don't like that kind of detail well, if you need some, if you need some uh inspiration, um call me and I'll gas you up I'm sure, I'm sure you will, I will.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I think that's fantastic but I'm doing a class on the rhetoric of god and in order to get scholarships I had to take a minimum of two classes, and I only had one that I had to do, yet to graduate. And so the other two are electives, so the rhetoric of God is an elective and and.
Speaker 2:Is that like from a theology or like a, like a religious studies perspective, or from like rhetoric?
Speaker 1:oh, it's in communications no, this is an elective. I should go in and look, okay, well that's okay, that's okay.
Speaker 2:I'm just curious what. That's a good question angle yeah, and I'm sure we'll hear about it this spring. Yeah, yeah, I hope so.
Speaker 1:That sounds really interesting. The other one is a death and dying class. Whoa, I know I'm really excited about it.
Speaker 2:Whoa yeah. Is that like a psychology?
Speaker 1:Again, I don't know, okay, okay.
Speaker 2:I mean, it would sound like it. I should know this. Elizabeth Kugler-Ross.
Speaker 1:But both of them I'm like, so excited about and in hindsight I'm kind of like I don't know why I didn't take more of a philosophy route as opposed to communications, but whatever. Yeah, because there's a part of me that wonders if you're hanging on, it's under English. Does that make sense? Oh wow, the rhetoric of God, the rhetoric of God. So that would be more of a that's my subfield.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, okay, I'm going to have so many questions for you once you get started with that. I mean. I love yeah.
Speaker 1:So many questions. The death and dying is what does S-O-W-K stand for? Social work?
Speaker 2:Oh, I bet I bet, that's what it is. Yeah, oh, that sounds really interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:And I did this with the permission that if either one ends up being boring like if I don't jive with a professor or if in any way the syllabus looks overwhelming.
Speaker 2:I drop the class that fast. Do you need a minimum of two? Is that right? Yeah, I need a minimum of two in order to. No, I think that's smart, that's really smart to do it that way.
Speaker 1:Not in order to graduate, but in order to have my scholarships. Oh, absolutely, absolutely yeah. So, that's yeah. So I was like okay, so I'm going to sign up for two that get me excited and then if any of them look boring, overwhelming, like you know, whatever, I give myself the right to drop them. Okay, um, because again this semester, even with the three classes, I'm actually not paying a thing. Whoa people out there.
Speaker 2:Work the scholarships, like if you're going to do college, work the scholarships yeah, you have to beat the bushes sometimes, but it's so worth it yeah.
Speaker 1:And you're going to get rejections and you're going to submit and not know if you actually qualify.
Speaker 2:Do it Absolutely, just do it A hundred percent. Yeah, I agree, I agree. Wow, that sounds really exciting. And, yes, like if you would share that syllabus with me. I would love to see it.
Speaker 1:I'm so curious about the rhetoric yeah so curious about that.
Speaker 2:So, to go back to what you were saying earlier about you know having a 10 year plan and you know what, what you're going to do with that. You know all that. It's such a shame that college has been reduced to job training and so much of our in so many of our minds. And you know, I think, the way that you have done it where you have you've gone part-time you have done it for your personal satisfaction as opposed to for a job. Not that there's not a time and place for that kind of thing, but I, my personal opinion, that is the ideal way to do college, to do it and just kind of follow what you're interested in, like that's a privilege, that's a it's. It's not something that everybody can do, but to me that's the way to really get the most out of it, or to, especially if you're interested in, you know, expanding your frame of reference, expanding your knowledge of the world, you know, learning skills, learning about lots of things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there's a part of me that and I think people are going to be able to identify with this too. I think part of it is just from coming out of a plain culture, but I had so many jobs where I had to pay attention and educate myself as I went because I did not get professional training.
Speaker 1:Right. The assumption was I knew more than I did and I was so often so concerned that found out. Also, I have had plenty of people who would say that your education doesn't matter. But it absolutely did when it came time to sign the paycheck. But they love the work ethic I brought and they use that work ethic to death. Of course I had to do that, and I think many of us have had to do that. If I do nothing with this degree, I think I've still earned my right to it.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Does that make sense? Oh, my goodness, it has to. In my mind the two are completely separate and I and I know that's that's not how it's typically talked about in, you know, public discourse. But like it is not about job training, it's about learning and expanding and and and and developing yourself, and like it's convenient when those two things intersect, and and that, and that's not a problem. But it's about so much more than that and I agree with you because my guess is, given the kind of major you're graduating with and given what I know of your circumstances and everything, probably it's not going to make a dramatic difference once you do have that degree right, like in your work life, that kind of thing. Is that your sense?
Speaker 1:I think I will be able. I mean, it's a negotiating chip. It's a negotiating chip Absolutely. I don't think it's going to give me any extra or any. I'm not going to see any major wage increase in it. At the end of the day, I'm a 50-year-old who has had weird gaps in her resume work history her resume, work history, and you can argue 100 different ways whether or not I actually have experience in my field.
Speaker 1:Don't get me started. I know, I know. And the frustrating thing is and I just keep having conversations about this I had a young mom, or I had a mom who was freaking out just a little bit because her daughter, whom she thinks is way too young, is getting married, and my response was at least your daughter has an education, which is more than what some of these girls have. And she's like very true, absolutely agreed. Yeah, I will fight all day long for especially females to get an education. What the world does to you without one oftentimes is devastating Absolutely. And I think I am probably late in life enough. I'm never going to see a financial payoff.
Speaker 2:Which is unfortunate, but and this does not discount any of the impact that you're talking about there I mean that's very real and not the way it should be. And also, like I look at how many years of education that I have versus someone who had, you know, who got an accounting degree, an undergrad, or who you know got a nursing degree, and I don't make near what they make and I never will, and so I guess what I'm saying is life is horribly unfair when it comes to education and pay scales. I mean, there's you have the statistical, there's the statistical trends, but then, but individually they're so it just makes no sense. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well? And who decided even that medical doctors should make the money they're making, but psychologists don't?
Speaker 2:Oh well, I know Like what in the world. Who decided that it's so arbitrary, so arbitrary?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, like most therapists barely make a living wage at first and we decided that mental health doesn't matter as much. Oh, yeah, yeah. So yeah, I hear your point too.
Speaker 2:And I'm not saying that to diminish the unfortunate reality that you're facing To me. The bigger point is that, yes, it's worth it, that education is worth it. It doesn't have to be justified by you know, earning potential If it's meaningful to you.
Speaker 1:You, that's what I was trying to say and you got there very much. You got there much more eloquently than I did. Yeah, exactly, and I think I think for so long I did feel the sense of, or this need to justify what.
Speaker 2:I was doing yeah, understandably, I mean, that's what?
Speaker 1:And the truth of it was I was overwhelmed working. I was overwhelmed with kids. I was and I'm doing college, you know whatever part time. So I was overwhelmed with that and I'm like I need to come up with a plan. I need to come up with a plan, but the truth was I for several years there, I was simply just staying afloat. Yeah, and I'm very intentionally working on releasing myself from the need to justify it. Good, and typically people ask me I'm just like I'm learning that when I do the next right thing, life works out Like I'll say something generic like that yes.
Speaker 2:Go for it, like that's wonderful, like normalize that yeah, that's my, you know. Normalize getting an education for an education's sake. For what it? For? The all the personal benefits. Yeah, I mean because, say you were to find yourself in a crisis situation, like you know how to navigate to create new opportunities for yourself, right, so doing it for just your personal benefit is what's wonderful, a wonderful way to do it.
Speaker 1:And you know, for the sake of argument, let's say something horrible does happen to Matt. This would give me more opportunities than if I didn't have it.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean you could go into any, like, say, master's level field Right, not any, but virtually any and within a couple of years significantly increase your pay potential. And your bachelor's degree has set you up for that, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, and even if I were just to go find a full time job, I do think, or the bachelor's, the bachelor's would give me a negotiating power that I would have had previously. But but in truthfulness, oftentimes as well, people are assuming I'm getting my master's doctorate and I'm like, nope, just a bachelor's. And I say that to create awareness. You people, you will get those questions. If you're late in life getting an education, you will get that. The assumption is and I'm learning to respect what is and it's worth fighting for, it's worth fighting for what you want.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely, and sometimes money isn't necessarily the it doesn't need to be the motivating, the driving factor. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Agreed, agreed, yeah, yeah, yeah. What does your semester look like?
Speaker 2:Well, I'm going to be teaching a college writing class, which I usually do most semesters, and that's one that I've kind of redesigned around the assumption that my students are dealing with executive functioning deficits for a whole host of reasons. I find that many of them are. So I have had a lot of fun fine-tuning that, you know, and presenting it in different ways, and it's oftentimes the first time. It's kind of a fun adventure for both the students and me. Let's put it that way.
Speaker 2:The other one is a grant writing class, and in the past yeah, in the past I've taught this class. We've worked with a community partner, like a local nonprofit, to give the students actual grant writing experience. That's not working out this time, but I am talking with some folks on campus, and so I'm hoping that we're going to be able to find some projects around campus that the students can write proposals for, you know, and by the time, by the end of the semester, like they will, they will not have submittable drafts. I mean, that's not the expectation, that's that's, that's unrealistic, but at least if they can, you know, get, get a head start on some of those things and maybe have a good concept.
Speaker 1:Have a good concept, absolutely have some and have some those things and have a good concept.
Speaker 2:Have a good concept Absolutely, and have some actual experience Right and have a sense. And it's so messy. It's such a messy, it can be such a messy process and there's so much, but I think just getting them, giving them the opportunity to get their hands dirty, is a big part of it. So I've found some new teaching materials. So right now my living room is littered with piles of papers as I'm trying to sort through stuff that we've done before, but then maybe I don't want to do this time. I want to place it with this and oh, it's such a giant puzzle, but it's all good.
Speaker 2:It's all good, and so I'm almost done with the syllabus, and then I have to get the learning management system all set up, and then, of course, the writing center, and we're working on some special projects there that I'm really excited about, and this is shifting a little bit. But over Christmas I had a conversation with Liberty, my daughter, who's in 10th grade, and college is like breathing down our necks almost. And I had a conversation with Liberty, my daughter, who's in 10th grade and college is like breathing down our necks almost.
Speaker 2:And I wanted to have a conversation with her to kind of set the tone, like, okay, what do you want my involvement to look like? As your mom, you know, what do you want my? And I knew it would be stressful, the conversation alone would be stressful, and so I just said, hey, look, I just want to know what, what you want from me, like what, what, what would help help you feel good about that? And so we talked about it and I, I think by the end of the conversation she was feeling a little less stressed, a little bit more calm about it, because what I told her was like at this point in the process, you are just collecting information. Yeah, you're just collecting, and people are going to ask you what major are you going to be in? People are asking that because they're trying to start a conversation with you. You don't have to know, you're under no obligation to know, right, and I gave her some scripts that she can say some language for those situations.
Speaker 2:That's really interesting to be on this side of things.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And where do we even start? So yeah, so that's, that's on my deck, it's, it's huge, it feels huge, oh and, and she wants to, she wants to get out of the midwest oh, although although she is aware that the the cost might be an issue. So um I think, I think if she found herself in a nice little college town in the Midwest, I think it might kind of be the best of both worlds for her.
Speaker 1:But we'll see. Tell her that. Interestingly enough, ohio is considered Midwest too, which there's all kinds of arguments about that, but Ohio is yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay so.
Speaker 1:I think Ohio is yeah, okay, so it would still be a lower cost of living.
Speaker 2:Is that what you're saying? Because she wants to get out of the Midwest.
Speaker 1:Right, right, Right, but yeah, Ohio. I think, is the start of the Midwest which many people debate.
Speaker 2:And I hear the debates, you know whatever.
Speaker 1:But so be it.
Speaker 2:So it might be the best of both worlds for her. Then I'm not saying Ohio is the best of all the worlds.
Speaker 1:Not saying that. But yeah, I. But yeah, college is a big deal, it is. It feels big, it feels big.
Speaker 2:And another thing I told her is like, look, you can't mess this up, like if you go to a place and it turns out you don't like it, you can do something else and it's going to be OK. And and you know someone in her position, she has got adults. She has not one but two homes she can land in if she needs to. And I just really tried to reassure her that this is she doesn't have to have it all figured out. Yeah, at the beginning and and yes, that is privileged, a privileged position to be in and embrace it it's a privileged position, but maybe it's more as it should be.
Speaker 1:Absolutely like what if we would make college to be this, this, this, this High stakes, yeah, and what if we would make college affordable so that all the liberties of the world don't have to be first generation students? Exactly, exactly Like, maybe. Maybe it's as it should be.
Speaker 2:Agreed, I agree. I love that framing of it. I'm going to tell her that too. Yeah, so I guess we're about out of time and hopefully we'll be on back on the mic sooner rather than later.
Speaker 1:Otherwise we can just congratulate ourselves next time we get back here.
Speaker 2:Right, right, and we've got some ideas for podcasts coming up. Last, tango in Halifax is a show that we were talking about, good Omens is another one, and we were thinking maybe we should do a recap, some recaps of those shows.
Speaker 2:So if anybody, wants to watch along. That that would be a lot of fun. But if listeners, if you've got ideas, topics, things you'd like for us to talk about, especially related to this intersection of midlife, pivots and education and cycle breaking and deconstruction and all the things, you can drop us a note in the link in our podcast and it'll come to us as a text, so you don't even have to open up your email that way. So well, you know what I want to congratulate myself for something. I don't think this is such an accomplishment for you, but it is for me. I find myself often feeling very insecure having a free-flowing conversation like this on the mic. Something about being on the mic always freaks me out. And here we are at the end and I'm surprised it's gone as well as it has.
Speaker 1:So Naomi, I was just thinking the same thing. I was thinking, you know, this went amazingly smoothly, like yeah, yeah, is this the podcast where we congratulate ourselves coming in and as we exit?
Speaker 2:I don't know if that is a good thing or if it's pathetic, but oh well it's who we are.
Speaker 1:It's who we are. I say we own it and run with it, absolutely.
Speaker 2:All right, folks, we'll see you next time. Take care.
Speaker 1:Thank you for spending time with us today. The resources and materials we've mentioned are linked in the show notes and on Facebook at Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 2:What are your thoughts about college and recovery from high demand religion? We know you have your own questions and experiences, and we want to talk about the topics that matter to you. Share them with us at uncoveredlifebeyondatgmailcom. That's uncoveredlifebeyondatgmailcom.
Speaker 1:If you enjoyed today's show and found value in it, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast app. This helps others find the show While you're there. Subscribe to our podcast so you never miss an episode Until next time.
Speaker 2:stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward. Thank you,
