Uncovered: Life Beyond
Join the conversations of Rebecca and Naomi, two ex-Amish Mennonite women who jumped the proverbial fence in their younger years and later experienced college as first-gen, non-traditional students. They discuss pursuing formal education while raising a family, navigating the hidden curriculum of academia, and other dimensions of reimagining a life beyond high-demand religion. Send your questions to uncoveredlifebeyond@gmail.com.
Uncovered: Life Beyond
44. Beyond the Block: Overcoming Creative Barriers
Last week we teased a book review for this episode, but--plot twist! We decided Julia Cameron's classic book, The Artist's Way deserves much more time than one episode. Instead, today we're discussing external and internal reasons we might doubt our creative abilities.
First, though, we catch up on each other's lives and congratulate Margaret Schrock on her recent publication, a natural prelude to our topic today! We begin by discussing some of the cultural and social messages many of us have received (especially in conservative religious communities) that tend to devalue artistic self-expression. It's not that we as individuals aren't creative, but that our creative interests are often directly or indirectly stifled, making it very difficult for us to strengthen our creative "muscle."
Over time, these external messages become internalized and continue to block our creativity even if we've consciously moved on to spaces that are more friendly to self-expression. We talk about the need to find and create communities that greet "baby steps" with cheers rather than criticism. Emotionally safe spaces like these help free us from thinking of art as a performance done for the approval of others. Rather, art becomes a way to explore, try something new, take artistic risks, and even fail just for the experience itself and what it can teach us about ourselves.
Do you have a community of creative support like this? Do you wish you had one? We've got great news for you! Listen to the end to hear all about what we have planned for the New Year. We hope you'll send us a text via the link above telling us you're interested and providing your email so we can keep you in the loop as our plans develop.
Show Notes
I'm So Glad You Left Me: 88 Stories of Courage, Self-Love and Personal Growth
The Artist's Way: 30th Anniversary Edition by Julia Cameron
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This is Rebecca and this is Naomi. We're 40-something moms and first cousins who know what it's like to veer off the path assigned to us.
Speaker 2:We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college and career, as we questioned our faith traditions while exploring new identities and ways of seeing the world.
Speaker 1:Without any maps for either of us to follow. We've had to figure things out as we go and appreciate that detours and dead ends are essential to the path Along the way, we've uncovered a few insights we want to share with fellow travelers.
Speaker 2:We want to talk about the questions we didn't know who to ask and the options we didn't know we had.
Speaker 1:So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking things up, we are here to cheer you on and assure you that the best is yet to come. Welcome to Uncovered Life Beyond. Hello everyone, welcome back to Uncovered Life Beyond. This is Naomi and this is Rebecca.
Speaker 2:So what has been happening in your world, miss Naomi Well?
Speaker 1:everything. Nothing. We're recording on a Monday morning and just coming off of a weekend where you know it's kind of like nothing happened but except laundry and mopping the kitchen floor and those kinds of things. Although probably the biggest positive is that I made some medication changes last week and so I'm on progesterone now and within the first day after taking it, like I found myself just doing things like, instead of like sitting there on the chair going, I got to get up, I got to go do this and like talking myself through it, like I'm lugging around a 50 pound bag of potatoes, I'm just getting up and doing it. And I even had a migraine that was pretty bad, but I still found myself like I could still function, that's amazing.
Speaker 1:You know.
Speaker 2:It's so weird to me that no one in the medical world denies that hormones are a thing. I'm not sure if I understand why there isn't more of an assumption that we have to do hormone testing.
Speaker 1:Well, my understanding is it's because that, like in perimenopause, the hormones are like all over the place, and so, like any, a test of where my hormones are today is not necessarily an indication of where they're going to be tomorrow, and what drives us crazy is the constant change, and that's but there's nothing.
Speaker 2:There's no way to figure out how to stabilize that.
Speaker 1:I mean there has to be a Trial and error.
Speaker 2:No trial and error Because I think I mean isn't there a hormone that stabilizes, so like we are fairly stable until perimenopause hits. Well, you know, stable-ish.
Speaker 1:There's a cycle. There's a predictable cycle.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So there has to be a way to treat or to not treat, but to stabilize it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think that's what HRT does, but some or like the hormonal birth control that I was on. But the issue is that everybody is so different. There are so many different factors, people respond differently to different things and it's deeply unsatisfying.
Speaker 2:I was surprised. I have a kid that really struggles with headaches, bad headaches, and we went to a neurologist who's a headache specialist and he wanted hormone testing done. Oh interesting. And we were like I was like, yeah, I was wondering about that. Yeah, and I'm like, so will you do that here? And he's like, oh no, oh no, I'm not a hormone doctor. If you think hormones are the cause of her headaches and you are a headache specialist, why would you not figure that out or work with a doctor who has yeah, that's.
Speaker 1:I know that's the.
Speaker 2:Like I don't. I do not understand. We just want cases that are easy and that we can.
Speaker 1:Well, I find that, you know, I so often I'll go to one doctor with a set of symptoms because I'm not sure who to go to. But I'll do this one and then, like down the road, I'll find out that, oh, that symptom is probably about this other thing that has nothing to do with that. Oh, it's just, it's hard, it's hard, it is hard, but. But I think the takeaway is that if something isn't working, it's worth it. Yeah, and to try. You know cause, like you know, I had the hysterectomy in June and I felt a lot better after that, but now not so much. I was having a lot of headaches, and I hear a lot of people having headaches, and so is that weather related. So, there again, this is an allergy issue.
Speaker 2:Anyway, sinuses, is it right?
Speaker 1:Who knows? But anyway, for now I can get up without having to sit there and psych myself up. So that's and we take that for a win. That's a huge win. So that's what's going on in my world. Tell me, you've got more going on than hormone news.
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, I feel and I probably said this last semester, and if I said it last semester, just ignore me I think this semester might kick my butt. It is kicking my butt. I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. I feel like I am just floating from one assignment to the next. The one class, my favorite class. I spend like half the class trying to figure out what he wants from me. But it's an interesting class, it's a world literature class, but for one essay there's like four pages of instructions and by the time I get to page three I'm so confused, like can we not just have bullet points? This is what you want and let it go, yeah, so yeah, that's going on. I'm getting ready for my big open house. You know, just, life Chase is to. My son is a junior in high school and he is the soccer goalie keeper. No, so sorry, goalie and keeper the same thing.
Speaker 2:So he would be the soccer keeper. I think soccer goalie thing, so he would be the soccer keeper, I think soccer goalie. Well, no, I'm thinking hockey. Well, no, no, you can. You can call a soccer keeper a goalie too, okay, okay, but I think I don't think you would call him a goalie keeper.
Speaker 1:I don't think that's correct. I know precious little about hormones. I know even less about sports, so yeah, well, um, but anyway, they keep winning.
Speaker 2:And they topped the school's record for shutouts, closeout shutouts. They're called shutouts Uh huh, Um, and they're like one away from tying the state record.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it's just been exciting, they're in districts now. No, yes, I think it's regionals districts and then state, I think.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay.
Speaker 2:And they're in the second tier, whatever tier that is. If we have anyone listening to us who knows their sports? You may roll your eyes at me. Chase, does it all the time. Just roll your eyes with love.
Speaker 1:Anyway, I show up and I cheer, yeah, so that's been fun, that's exciting, and so does this involve a lot of travel.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, usually the games are about an hour away. Okay, so it's not bad. When you live in Holmes County you drive an hour for just about anything.
Speaker 1:Wow, that is so cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, very exciting.
Speaker 1:I was wanting to. I was hoping I could maybe recruit Chase to our school and we have a pretty good soccer program. But if he's going to play at that, at that level, he's gonna set his sights higher, I'm afraid yeah, I I don't know, he's still not sure if he wants to play soccer in college.
Speaker 2:He also does pretty well, um, in esports. Oh yeah, he does actually really well with esports. So he's like well, do I do that and I think when and he's also really good at band, like he's won several whatever, I don't know anyway. So he's basically at the place where whoever gives me the best or the most money, so like if someone wants to give him money for soccer he'll do that yeah someone wants to give money for esports he'll do that, you know, whatever it is, yeah but he's looking for money.
Speaker 1:No, I understand that. I understand that, but I mean, it sounds like he would do well at a liberal arts campus where he could pursue different things Well, soccer is pretty brutal.
Speaker 2:Sports programs are pretty brutal. I think they practice like three times a day, yikes, yeah, yeah, it's pretty brutal. So my understanding and again this is me knowing Precious Little, but my understanding is probably the notion of doing band soccer and esports and then right now he wants to be a psychiatrist would be a little bit of an overload. Yeah, I keep trying to talk him into optometry. I think that would be such an easier life.
Speaker 1:But psychiatrist wow, yeah, Well, so that would mean med school, right? Yeah, so going to like a liberal arts school? I mean, like, my understanding is that with med school you can go to almost any undergrad through any undergrad program. I mean you might have to take a few prerequisites, but yeah.
Speaker 2:So we'll see, we'll see Very exciting.
Speaker 1:You know he's got options. That's a great place to be, right, yeah, yeah. So oh, before we jump into our topic for today, I wanted to give a shout out to my sister, margaret.
Speaker 2:Schrock, who, since we're talking about family, anyway, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 1:She just had one of her essays published in a collection. The title of it is I'm so glad you left me 88 stories of courage, self love and personal growth, and I learned some things that I didn't know about her.
Speaker 2:Isn't that fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I thought I knew everything. I thought I knew that whole story, but I found out a few more details. But I think it really ties in with what we'll be talking about today and I'm really proud of her for this out today and I'm really proud of her for this. In a lot of ways, she was the one who inspired me to take an interest in literary kinds of things. I mean, she was the one talking about being a journalist years ago, before I even knew what that was, and so she's been a writer, she's been a reader since very young and it's really exciting to see that coming to fruition in a publication. And so this book is available on Amazon and we'll put the link in the show notes.
Speaker 1:And I think the kind of the central theme of this collection is and reading here from the description 88 short true life stories about women who decided or were forced to leave life circumstances that were not serving them anymore. These disruptions in our lives are for our spiritual and personal growth. So lots of experiences. But definitely check out my sister's chapter, and her name again is Margaret Schrock, so congratulations, margaret.
Speaker 2:So proud of you and seriously, that is so exciting. Throwing yourself out there like that is a whole other game.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And we are like so excited for you, margaret, congratulations.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Hopefully this is just the first.
Speaker 2:Right, we want to announce more of these this is just the first Right.
Speaker 1:We want to announce more of these Right. Right, which is what we're talking about today. We're talking about creative expression, art, like there's a whole list of words we could use for this but we've noticed that creative expression is often an issue for many of us who come from more conservative, traditional backgrounds, where education, personal expression, are not top priorities. And just to be clear, we're not saying that people in these communities aren't creative, but we're saying these communities often do very little to nurture creativity, and so there's a lot of talent, there's a lot of ability, there's a lot of satisfaction in life that people aren't experiencing because they haven't been given an opportunity to develop it.
Speaker 2:You know it's so interesting to develop it. You know it's so interesting so I would have numerous times heard the phrase, and I heard this specifically when I was begging for more of an education. I would have heard the phrase God gave you two hands. Go put them to work, go get busy. And internally I was always like but what about the brain he gave me. And I've noticed something. For the most part, you're right. Creative expression is typically not encouraged. However, learning how to get around rules and learning how to get around roadblocks and learning how to get around roadblocks, yes, in order to reach a goal.
Speaker 2:we're kind of pretty good at.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely Like here in Holmes County several years ago and it's probably a thing still there were groups of Amish who were not allowed to have a computer. But somehow they figured out if they built a cage for it. They then called it a processor, I don't know. They called it something else and because it was one complete unit it wasn't considered a computer anymore and most churches accepted it. But I think you will find a lot of that happening within the Amish Mennonite communities and I think that's why so many of them are quite innovative. I mean, we can figure things out, but we just never call it art Right and it's very much focused on the goal.
Speaker 1:It's very goal oriented Right.
Speaker 2:And most times money.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, yeah, you know we can't make money, right. Well, if it's for business, right. There's a lot of things that can be justified. Lots of caveats.
Speaker 2:There was another Amish church locally who decided several years ago that if you had a business you were allowed to have a cell phone. And I have one cousin, I adore her. She's like, well, shoot, I have a sewing business. And she went, got herself a cell phone and I'm like, dang it, girl, I love it, like I can get behind that. It's. It's, it's, play the game, it's. Yes, we can all do this.
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely, absolutely, I agree, I agree it's. It's not a shortage of natural talent, right, exactly that creative part of us that has not been developed, that's not been cultivated. I was thinking about different kinds of blocks, different kinds of barriers, and I think we could kind of think of them as two buckets One is external reasons, and then there are internal reasons, and often the internal reasons kind of grow out of those external reasons.
Speaker 1:So like cultural values, and that in its different forms, as well as just daily life and the demands of adulting. But what are some cultural values or cultural norms that come to your mind when you think about external blocks to creativity?
Speaker 2:So we've already kind of addressed the issue that hard work and tradition tend to be prioritized over play and innovation. And I mean pretty young. We tend to have our kids working, we tend to assign chores, we tend to have have kids doing their fair share of the household responsibilities, and while that's not necessarily all bad, I think sometimes it might be overdone.
Speaker 1:Well, there's just not room left for play, right, you know? And we were just talking about innovation a minute ago but I think the kind of innovation we're talking about here is like change, like doing something different, like there's this real resistance to doing something different. So, yeah, we can innovate in an effort to keep things from changing, right right, yeah, or to get around rules as an adult.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes, but that's not necessarily encouraged as a child.
Speaker 1:Right, and art education is virtually non-existent. Now, I remember doing some art classes in high school. That was like Christian Light Publications, I think it was their art curriculum, and it was very rudimentary. It was sketching, you know, and it was about copying models, that rather than or you know, references, rather than about any kind of self-expression. That was the least of the concerns.
Speaker 2:Well, and while I was at school at Shady Grove, art didn't affect your GPA.
Speaker 1:And so.
Speaker 2:I just found no reason to consider it important, which is really kind of freaky, because I think I figured that out in third grade already and I was like well, what difference does it make?
Speaker 1:That's kind of pathetic, well, but you know, you were picking up from the community, you were picking up the values, yeah, and I was pretty driven.
Speaker 2:I was pretty driven. I already knew that my chances for high school were pretty minimal.
Speaker 1:And remember, uh, we weren't allowed to read the lion, the witch in the wardrobe because it had talking animals yeah so did they never read revelation? Or balaam the story of balaam right right, right right it was just assumed that it you know it had to be satanic if there were animals talking. I mean, I don't know, maybe that's overstating it, but just that suspicion for sure, right right.
Speaker 2:I've often thought about how it would be if one was allowed to read the Bible, particularly the Old Testament, with a little bit of the same wonder or novelty as like Greek mythology. And before anyone gets excited no, I'm not trying to be a heretic here. I'm not trying to do that, so please hang on. But there is some really powerful imagery available.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, but to read it so factually, I think maybe.
Speaker 1:Well, that's not the way literature worked in ancient times. The idea of journalistic accuracy or journalistic there's a word there that I'm grappling for, but that was just objectivity. That was just not a thing that I'm grappling for, but like that was just objectivity. You know, that was just not a thing.
Speaker 2:Well, to be fair, when my kids first came home talking about Greek mythology, I would listen and I would be all like those Greeks, robbed from our biblical stories. How dare they? And it took me a bit to realize. Oh no, they came first.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So the reality is probably particularly the Old Testament we really can't assume to be completely factual, right.
Speaker 1:It wasn't written With that intention. It wasn't understood, not in the way that we think of it today.
Speaker 2:Right, right and I wonder if that translation isn't more for our benefit than for anything, because, boy, it feels good to have the answers and to know the facts.
Speaker 1:Right, right. Well, it's a very modernist idea, that idea of objectivity.
Speaker 2:Then, additionally, we had the Weeby Lambs, we had Family Life, we had Calvary Messenger, we had the Martyr's Mirror. Which, not to mock the Martyr's Mirror my friend Gerald Mast always speaks so fondly of it and I shake my head, but I know he's right. We probably just shouldn't be reading the Martyr's Mirror in place of nursery rhymes at a young age. There's a certain level of trauma associated with that.
Speaker 1:There was a book. I was trying to remember what it, dear Princess, that's what it was. Do you remember reading that? Yes, it was. Let me see here. It's a Rod and Staff book. I vaguely remember that. I remember the one story I remember from this one chapter was about a group of girls who were going on a walk on a Sunday afternoon and how somebody stopped and Whistled or something. I don't remember what it was. I remember at the time it was pretty traumatizing. Probably, if we go back and read it now it would be pretty mild. Maybe, maybe. But you know it was building that fear and suspicion of anyone different, right? Instead of being curious, instead of being interested, you saw them anyone from the outside as predators.
Speaker 2:Well, wasn't, and maybe I'm getting my stories confused, so I hate to say this. If I am, but weren't they intending to do harm? But then, because they were dressed so modestly, they drove away.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm sure I forgot about that.
Speaker 2:I'm sure that was I'm pretty sure that was part of that story.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it cemented this notion that if we are meek and mild and demure, then no harm will befall us.
Speaker 1:And wearing a head covering.
Speaker 1:And wearing a head covering yeah, not that it's like a magical crucifix we wear around our neck, nothing like that, but it's going to protect us from all kinds of harm. Yeah, yeah, very different, very different. So approval, then, is based on performing community norms. And I use the word performing there very intentionally, because when it's about when appearance matters so much as it does in these communities, then play and self-expression are viewed. It's suspicion, they're seen as childish, you know, and so it's as human beings. It's a basic need to be accepted by our social group, and so we learn very early to conform to the social group, to the norms, cultural norms, and we learn very quickly to hide any characteristic that makes us stand out in some way.
Speaker 2:Well, and I even think about the ways. So my sister was an incredible seamstress, creative, particular, like an amazing seamstress, but the church rules were so rigid.
Speaker 1:Amazing seamstress, but the church rules were so rigid and in spite of that, I saw her still trying to be creative and work around the rules.
Speaker 2:But I used to wonder, or I used to believe, that those rules were there for protection and that's how it's presented, but I think it's more about stifling that self-expression and that creativity.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I've often wondered what she could have done had she been fashion, like all these means of self-expression are demonized or banned.
Speaker 1:It leaves so few approved options for artistic expression and I think there's. It doesn't allow for many models, doesn't allow for examples to follow. It doesn't allow for yeah, it does not, it only stifles. The emphasis is on stifling creativity and getting with the program. So no wonder we grow up and think we aren't creative.
Speaker 1:Right, right, right. And it's not just in our conservative communities either, I think. In the broader American culture there's a tendency to see art, artistic expression, as kind of this extra thing that's not really necessary but a little bit frivolous, unless you're naturally talented and you're actually really good at it. Well then we know we can get behind that, but there's only a few that are naturally talented, and so if you're not one of those, why bother?
Speaker 2:and I think, if we're honest about it, when leaders want to control artistic options, artistic expression, those are the first things they take away Right, and I think that's sad. I think we've lost a lot of art due to lack of resources, lack of time, because we believe it doesn't matter Right.
Speaker 1:And I think it ties in with this larger idea that if it's not, if it doesn't make us money, if it doesn't or doesn't make somebody money, there's no point to it. And I think there's been a lot of emphasis on your hobby becoming a side gig, and I understand the need for side gigs, but I find so much freedom in the fact that we we're not trying to monetize our podcast, we're just doing it for the fun of it, and I think there's so much more, so much more satisfaction, so much more freedom in it when we can do that rather than rather than just think of it in terms of making a profit.
Speaker 2:Well, I think we've all seen people who have fun doing something, make a little bit money and then all of a sudden create this platform and it almost feels like they sold their soul and it almost feels like they sold their soul, and I say that as non-judgmentally as I can because I mean I don't know, I mean probably not going to happen, but what if one day we end up making money off of this? But let's not sell our souls in the process, right?
Speaker 1:right, right. And again, I recognize late capitalism being what it is just finding time for a hobby, let alone one that doesn't help pay the bills is, can be hard to do. But I think, yeah, there's a. And then also, you know content creators. I mean, if you're a writer or if you're an, an artist or whatever your medium is, you know you have to be on all the social medias. That's what they tell you All the social medias. You have to be sending out emails constantly. And I, just as I mean I just this morning, was going through my inbox and unsubscribing, unsubscribing from all the newsletters that I don't read. And it's not that I don't value the content behind it or the creators behind it, I do. I just there's no time in my day to read all of that and I just I guess what I'm just all I'm saying is like they're just doing what the marketing gurus are telling them to do, right, but I and I have no desire to become part of that machine, right?
Speaker 2:I get that and I think the sad fact of it is adulting is exhausting. I talked to a kid who this is his first year out of college and I casually was like so how's adulting going? And he's like I am exhausted and I'm like I bet you are.
Speaker 1:And, I'm sorry, adults is facing is a situation where the living expenses for our basic needs have gone up, but salaries have not kept pace. So it's more expensive than ever to have a house, to rent a place to drive a car, any of those things, and buy groceries, for that matter.
Speaker 2:You know. One more thing on that note, and I know I have criticized the whole trad wife movement experience, whatever you want to call it, and I am critical of it. However, I've wondered if that is one way those women have been allowed to have self-expression, because it does bring in money.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, I think that's a good point.
Speaker 2:So I always cringe a little bit when I criticize the trad wife gig, and I do because I wonder if it isn't a desperate need to be creative and to have some form of self-expression. And so you find out how to do that, or you figure out how to do that by following the rules that are placed in front of you.
Speaker 1:Right, and so maybe it's more about a problem with the system in which they find themselves as it is about them as individuals. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:The insanity of that whole idea is they're telling women to stay at home and depend on their husbands for financial support when they themselves are making money. It's just like to my brain, it's just insanity. Like, let me make money, telling you how to stay at home and not make money, yes, yes, I don't understand. I don't understand.
Speaker 1:Don't get me started. I'm just going to take a deep breath and say absolutely, and I'm going to move on, because if I start I might not stop.
Speaker 2:So moving on to the internal reasons that we kind of stay stuck.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of these grow out of the cultural norms we were just talking about, and if we've been in an environment where self-expression has been discouraged, then we're probably not going to feel a lot of confidence that we have anything to offer and might just be afraid we're going to make a fool out of ourselves and they're going to laugh at us or whatever. But then I think the flip side is, if someone is told your stuff is good, you are smart, you are brilliant, all this, they can also feel stuck because they know they might not be more aware of their own limitations and might be afraid they can't live up to the expectations. And so I think, either way, this is a fear that's almost universal, and I think it's worth thinking about where it comes from in our particular case, and realizing external approval is not the point.
Speaker 2:Right. But I do think, and especially for those of us raised in the Amish Mennonite community, this whole notion of humility and never putting yourself out there, I mean, god forbid, you're called fawitsi. Oh yeah, see, it's so fawitsi. I mean that is like the slam.
Speaker 1:And how would you even begin to translate that word?
Speaker 2:Isn't it forward?
Speaker 1:Yeah, she puts herself forward, I think is the translation it's initiative, taking yeah, yeah forward.
Speaker 2:I think is the translation it's initiative taking, yeah, and maybe just slightly too eager. She doesn't know her place. So I mean, if you're called that a few times, this whole notion of making a fool out of yourself I mean your self-protection is going to set in, yes, and you don't want to experience that again. And so you adapt, you change and invariably that becomes this skill of making yourself smaller.
Speaker 1:Blending in, yeah Right, figuring out what's acceptable.
Speaker 2:And maybe the only way I can be that is by being a trad wife or whatever other few options are available. But then we're going to be the dang best trad wife we've ever been or that has ever been.
Speaker 1:Right, right. And if your house is clean, if your garden is weeded and well-kept, if your flower beds look good, there's not going to be time. There's not going to be time. There's not going to be time for anything else.
Speaker 2:An Amish couple just moved next door to us and I'm pretty convinced they were just despairing over my poor garden. I felt like I should go apologize to them.
Speaker 1:They're beautiful people, they're wonderful people, but I was aware, I was very aware that's so good. Yeah, I mean, and I think these messages come in the most, I mean they can come in the most innocuous ways. I mean I just think of my own experience when I was a kid, in my tween years, where I had taken an interest in drawing, and you know when it was nothing.
Speaker 2:I know your daughter. Before you say it was nothing, I bet it was pretty dang good.
Speaker 1:Oh, it was not. It was no, no, no, no, you are too kind.
Speaker 2:But she's had more resources and encouragement than you had.
Speaker 1:Right, right, right, and I think I, yes, absolutely I agree. So so what I'm saying is, yeah, I didn't get far at all down the developmental path, gotcha, but I remember drawing a picture that I was pretty proud of and showing it to a, an extended family member that I had, at least in my mind, had kind of bonded with earlier over kind of artistic interests, and showing this and not getting the reaction that I'd hoped for, and really feeling crushed by it. And looking back now you know that family member had no idea what was going on in my head and that family member had plenty of other things on her mind. Like I don't. I look back on that with no animosity, right, but it had a dampening effect for sure, much different effect than if there had been a positive reaction.
Speaker 2:I think we should talk about this because I'm not sure that many of us know how to truly sincerely, openly be affirming to someone else affirming to someone else.
Speaker 1:How many times has anyone been that way to us when we were growing up? And yes, I think so often. In our world, intelligence is, at least certainly in the literary world, intelligence is often seen as how finely you can criticize something, how fine-tuned, how in the weeds your criticism can be. But that may or may not be what you're thinking of.
Speaker 2:Well, but haven't you heard the phrase of and I'm thinking back to more our experience growing up? But you know well, we've got to bring him down in peg oh yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.
Speaker 2:And I think there's this sense that the playing field is so small. Yes, competition isn't welcomed. Yes, and I think sometimes that the sense of actually being good at something is so underdeveloped that if you have a little bit of that, you kind of want to protect that. But then, to be fair, I think emotional intelligence might be quite low sometimes as well, because, if you think about it, the people who are affirming, the people who are gracious and encouraging and give curious responses about your work are the ones who tend to be a little bit more emotionally mature. Yes, yeah, so I mean I think there's a whole mix of reasons for it, but I think we need to talk about it because I mean, I've been in a writer's group where it was crushing the responses I got. I went home and didn't write again for months.
Speaker 1:That's awful.
Speaker 2:It is awful and there's a part of me that is angry that I left. It affect me the way it did Turns out you're human. It turns out you're human. It turns out I'm human. But I think, I think maybe what I want to say is, if you get negative feedback, and even somewhat crushing feedback, it's not you right, it's not about you, it's not about your art, it's not about your work. It is so much more reflection of that person and even though you consider that person to be better than you and you were hoping maybe to learn from them, they're not your person. Move on, don't stop. Don't think that there's no one out there for you. Just keep looking, keep asking, keep putting yourself out there and then take really good care to make sure that we treat those coming after us differently. Let's treat those people better.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I think what I have learned as a teacher of writing is that it's completely useless to evaluate someone as a writer, because there's just no way to objectively do that.
Speaker 1:What we can do is evaluate the draft we have in front of us, but that's all it is, and that says nothing about an individual's capability, their capacity, it says nothing about where that piece of writing could go and whatever boost natural talent offers. There's just so many confounding variables that, at the end of the day, it says so little, so little about a person's potential. And, as I tell my students, the difference between an awesome writer and a mediocre writer is just how many drafts they went through. The mediocre writer went okay, this is good and let it go, and the great writer kept on, but their first drafts were pretty much the same, pretty much the same quality. So, even if somebody is just starting out and what they're producing is not up to the highest standards or whatever, however you want to say that, so what? That's not the point. That's not the point and it says nothing about what they are capable of.
Speaker 2:You know you're good at this and I've learned from you, but I think some of the things that people have done for me that have been most helpful, that people have done for me that have been most helpful and you've done this for me is instead said things like this is really interesting, this line here is really interesting. Tell me more about that. Or I'm not sure that this phrase is telling me anything important. What do you mean by that? Just by asking questions and expressing curiosity and what is read kind of can help organize the message in someone's brain, or the intended message yeah absolutely it can bring clarity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we call that reading like a reader. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it is. It's like reflecting and say, okay, as a reader, this is what I'm thinking, and it's just kind of being a mirror and a mirror for the writer and saying, okay, this is the feeling I'm getting. Is that what you were going for? To me, the best kind of feedback is feedback that starts by asking what are your goals for this? What do you need from me? Because sometimes, when someone asks for feedback, they just want to know am I doing anything majorly wrong in here? That's going to get me a zero. Other times it's like, hey, I'm just trying to figure out what I'm trying to say, and they really want you to get in the weeds and the piece belongs to the writer. And, as someone who is giving feedback, all I can do is read as a reader and say here's what I'm experiencing. Is this what you want to? Does this fit your goals?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think criticism and receiving it and knowing when to just let it go is so valuable, is so valuable. Not everyone who has written a book wishes to share their experience with me, and that's okay, but then I'm not going to take any negativity from them seriously either.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And that was kind of where I had to get to. And, at the end of the day, the people who've issued some of the most harsh, weirdest criticism. I don't really want to trade places with them. I don't really want to be the type of writer they are anyway.
Speaker 1:You're into two different wavelengths.
Speaker 2:Right. So I think, instead of if criticism devastates you, it's valid. Typically it's valid, but don't internalize it, the devastation is valid. The devastation? Yes, thank you for clarifying that. The devastation is valid. It was probably delivered in a horrible way, yeah, but I'm betting the criticism wasn't valid.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely Absolutely, and I think, whether or not it was valid, I think it's worth it to be aware that when we spent our formative years hearing criticism as a judgment of our moral worth, of who we are, you know, as a good person or not, a person, who's going to heaven or hell, you know, our nervous system is primed to be incredibly sensitive to any kind of perceived criticism and I know for myself. I've had experiences where I got feedback on something and I read through it and I thought it was all negative, negative, negative. And two weeks later I looked at it again and I was like what was I even looking at? It was like seeing a different document. And then, further, I had a conversation with a person who wrote the letter and no criticism was the last thing.
Speaker 1:And then I realized I learned ultimately or eventually. Then in time, I learned about some of the dynamics going on in the background and understood some of the coded language. But there was other stuff going on and it was not a criticism of me, but I was feeling very vulnerable in the moment and I read it as that and so, yeah, so the feeling is genuine. I guess for me it's been freeing to learn to catch myself in that feeling, that horrible feeling of being criticized, and go oh, this is not everything, you know, this is not. This might not be as much of a criticism as it feels like it is.
Speaker 2:And maybe it's my seven-year-old self who thinks I got something wrong and I'm going to hell Like maybe it's not the adult version of me that's responding.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and so that's yeah, and I think that's it's freeing. For me it's been freeing.
Speaker 2:And I think it's really important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think this helps us get comfortable with, or more comfortable with, the vulnerability of the process of learning. And you know, and I find like I spend most of the semester where I'm teaching first year college students preaching until their ears bleed about what is involved in learning and about learning is not about a performance of what you know. Learning is about trying and experimenting and vulnerability. You know, my favorite example and I probably have already said it on the podcast is, like you know, when a kid takes their first step, the next thing that happens is they fall over and we don't say, oh, I guess this kid is just never going to walk.
Speaker 2:They're just not cut out. Walking probably isn't for them. It's probably not for them.
Speaker 1:They're not naturally talented in the gift of walking, no, so I guess they better just get used to crawling and scooting on their butt. Yeah, you know, and I know we cheer that they took a step and I just wish we were that way when it came to creative self-expression. So we've talked about some of these external and some of these internal blocks. Why bother trying to get in touch or kind of reignite that creative capacity that I think we were all born with? Why bother I think that's an important question to ask why go through the discomfort of being awkward and doing things for the first time and flubbing them and trying again?
Speaker 2:So I realized when the kids went to college they were emotionally healthier and happier when they had at least one art class in their semester and at first I was like, oh, that was interesting for that. And I think we were all born with the capacity to be creative and I wonder if we would not be better, a more healthy self, if we are allowed ourselves to tap into it and if we were encouraged to do that Right, and not as like, oh, here's another obligation to put on your to-do list, but more as kind of collective permission to pursue something that we do just for the fun of it, just because it's you know like.
Speaker 1:I doodle calligraphy. I've done it my whole life. Well, my whole life, most of my yeah, ever since I could, and it's gotten me through many long, boring sermons.
Speaker 2:Is there a beachy girl who did not practice calligraphy in church?
Speaker 1:Well, you know, it can pass as note-taking, so it gives me pleasure just because it's fun. And what if that's enough of a reason to do it and to make time for, whether it's creativity in terms of, well, maybe flower beds or macrame or sewing or whatever. I mean it could be a skill like that, but it could also be writing, it could also be drawing or painting or music.
Speaker 2:You know, I think that whole process can bring us surprised insight, it can create a community, it can give you satisfaction and it can be fun. But I think for myself. I have a friend who is intentional about being playful. She talks about being playful and I have intentionally observed her and the way she interacts with the world around her and I've realized how important it is little selves inside of us who want to create and who want to be allowed to play and some of us, I think, probably have playtime that we need to catch up for, that we weren't allowed to have Right, and I think it could be a very powerful way to reparent yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I agree. And when we think about play, for a child to be able to play, there has to be a sense of safety, emotional safety. They can't be on guard.
Speaker 2:There's an element of I'm seeing how high I can stack these blocks and then they're going to fall over and that's going to be fun, and then I'm just going to do it again, just because it's fun. Yeah, wow, wow, and that's all that's necessary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's all, that's all. So I think the challenge for us is to for many of us anyway to, in recapturing this to help create a sense of community where it's safe for others to join in and we can be. We can, we can create that safe place for play, for creative expression amongst ourselves, and this leads us into this fun thing that-.
Speaker 2:An exciting announcement.
Speaker 1:Something's coming, as they all say yeah. So recently, book the Artist's Way by Julia Cameron has come to our awareness and it's one of these books that's been around since I think first edition came out in 1992. It's been around for a long time. Elizabeth Gilbert said that Eat, pray, love would never have happened if it hadn't been for this book. So in reading it and oh, and I should also did I say what the title is the Artist's Way, anyway, a Spiritual Path to Higher Creativity the subtitle, and it's a 12-week process of exercises and tools for developing creativity.
Speaker 1:And we were thinking about doing a review of the book and then, as we got more familiar with it, thought, wow, this would be fun to do as a 12-week process and see if anybody wants to join us in doing this after the first of the year. That would give us give everybody some time to get a copy of the book and get familiar with it and see if this is something that they'd be interested in. But we're thinking of a virtual group where we could encourage each other, we could work through the book together and that this would be a place for those who wonder if they could be a writer but aren't even sure where to start, where they would even go to find out. This is not for the elite critics or anyone like that. This is for learners and people who want to experiment and play and encourage each other.
Speaker 2:So if you have any interest at all in joining us, first of all put the book on your Christmas wishlist or just buy it for yourself. That's fine too, but text us and let us know. And even if you text us, you're not committing to anything. Um, you're just going to be put on the list and I don't expect to have 30 people texting us, but at some point we'll probably have to have a cutoff, because I mean realistically, probably not more than 12 people.
Speaker 1:Agreed, agreed.
Speaker 2:And there will probably be a small fee, but this is truly for anyone who wishes to develop their creativity, who wishes to have a place to be curious and to play, and we hope you decide to join us.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and we'll keep talking about it in the weeks that come and provide more information as we figure it out.
Speaker 2:Not like we're making anything up on the fly here.
Speaker 1:I think this could be so rewarding and so much fun, especially when we might be filling in the gaps of things we didn't our younger selves didn't have, and I think it's just a really lovely thing when we can do that for each other and maybe feel a little less alone as we try to figure these things out as we go.
Speaker 2:I'm so excited.
Speaker 1:I think it's going to be a lot of fun. I really do, I really do. I think it's going to be a lot of fun. I really do, I really do and I've been listening to the audio versions of this author's work. I still have to read the book myself, but from what I've heard from it so far, I think her perspective is one that's going to resonate with a lot of the kinds of things many of us are dealing with, so I'm really excited about that. All right, well, until we figure things out for our next podcast.
Speaker 2:so long, Don't forget to text us. We want to hear from you.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's right. Yes, and there's. The link is in the show notes. Says text us to send us a line. I'm in, and oh, they should probably send their email. Right, I'm in, and yeah, and, and your email, so we can put you on the list and we'll keep you up to date. All right, catch y'all later.
Speaker 2:Talk to you soon. Thank you for spending time with us today. The resources and materials we've mentioned are linked in the show notes and on Facebook at Uncovered Life Beyond what?
Speaker 1:are your thoughts about college and recovery from high demand religion. We know you have your own questions and experiences and we wanna talk about the topics that matter to you. Share them with us at uncoveredlifebeyondatgmailcom. That's uncoveredlifebeyondatgmailcom.
Speaker 2:If you enjoyed today's show and found value in it, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast app. This helps others find the show While you're there. Subscribe to our podcast so you never miss an episode Until next time stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward.
