Uncovered: Life Beyond

36. Set up to Fail: Patriarchy's Femininity Trap

• Naomi and Rebecca • Episode 36

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Are women guilty of manipulation and passive-aggressive tendencies? Sure! However, we are here to point out that these tactics are used across the board by women AND men. Moreover, we can't ignore the unfortunate reality that many of us were trained as young children to avoid more direct ways of communicating, so manipulation is often the only tool available to us to get our needs met.

In this episode, we talk about the role of authoritarian religious parenting in conditioning us to use manipulation to get our needs met, the social pressures that further promote manipulation, and the projection that often lurks behind accusations of manipulation. Rather than buying into notions of women as the "weaker sex" and thus more prone to "emotional irrationality," we uncover the power struggle behind these deep-seated sexist ideas to show how they trap women (and men!) in dysfunctional and dissatisfying relationships. We also suggest more healthy alternatives that offer liberation to ourselves and our loved ones.

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Speaker 1:

This is Rebecca and this is Naomi. We're 40-something moms and first cousins who know what it's like to veer off the path assigned to us.

Speaker 2:

We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college and career, as we've questioned our faith traditions while exploring new identities and ways of seeing the world.

Speaker 1:

Without any maps for either of us to follow. We've had to figure things out as we go and appreciate that detours and dead ends are essential to the path Along the way, we've uncovered a few insights we want to share with fellow travelers.

Speaker 2:

We want to talk about the questions we didn't know who to ask and the options we didn't know we had.

Speaker 1:

So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking things up, we are here to cheer you on and assure you that the best is yet to come. Welcome to Uncovered Life Beyond. Hello everyone, welcome back to Uncovered Life Beyond. This is Naomi and this is Rebecca.

Speaker 2:

So here we are back again. I hope everyone got a chance to hear the interview we did with Just Plain Wrong. That was so much fun it was. They are like the most fun people, and I think librarians are going to change the world. They're just cool people.

Speaker 1:

I'm a huge fan of librarians. Every institution I've been at, the library feels like the heart of everything that's going on on campus.

Speaker 2:

Agreed. So what have you been up to these days, naomi Well?

Speaker 1:

last week we were in the Olympic Peninsula in Washington State. I bet that was gorgeous. It was amazing. The peninsula is huge and so it takes hours to get anywhere, but along the way you have phenomenal scenery. There's coastline, there's rainforest, there's just, you know, old growth forest. Really incredible scenery. But now I'm back and trying to buckle down and get things ready for school, getting my syllabi ready for the semester, and just trying to keep track of all the million and one little things that need to be handled.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's a lot it is I flip the? Calendar page and it's like, oh my gosh, like two weeks and we're going to be moving the twins back to college, which is insanity, wow.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So what's going on in your life Other than?

Speaker 2:

other than fretting about moving kids back to college Right.

Speaker 1:

Hey, it's your third time, right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, this is their third year. Yeah, wow, and the one's actually going to graduate this year, graduate a year early, and then I think the other one has another semester left. Oh, my goodness yeah.

Speaker 1:

They just flew through Wow.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I know, I know, Like truly, if I do the double major, I think we're going to graduate like in the same year.

Speaker 1:

Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 2:

Which is crazy, crazy.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and you need a big celebration plan for that?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So, yeah, there's that, and I'm still old school and can spaghetti sauce and stewed tomatoes and all that jazz. So that has to get done in the next week or so that makes the house smell amazing. Yeah, I always dread it and then when I start doing it it's like okay, okay, this is good. And you know, homemade spaghetti sauce does kind of taste better.

Speaker 1:

Well at all but yeah, there's a lot of things like that that just tastes better when you do it yourself. I have my canning supplies down in the basement and I, the last few years, I just I just gave myself a pass. I'm debating, I'm debating. Well, I keep thinking about different seasons of life and I keep debating about whether I should just give my supplies to somebody who would actually use them or if I'm going to regret that because in a few years I'll want to take it back up again, kind of like I took sewing back up again this summer.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you know that's pretty deep in your blood. I mean when life settles down a bit you might want to resurrect that again. I don't know. I've given myself permission anyway to. If it doesn't happen, for whatever reason, it's not the end of the world, right, like yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, there are grocery stores.

Speaker 2:

There are grocery stores, there are grocery stores that will see us through, we'll be fine, we'll be fine, we'll be fine. Yeah, exactly so, naomi, why don't you start us off and tell us about today's title?

Speaker 1:

So the title of this episode is Set Up to Fail Patriarchy's Femininity Trap. Episode is a setup to fail patriarchies femininity trap and another word for this, another term, is a double bind. You know the kind of darned if you do, darned if you don't. This is a topic that was inspired by you because of some conversations you came across recently inspired by you because of some conversations you came across recently.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and this has been something that's been kind of you know, like you have those subjects in the back of your brain that every time the subject comes up you just like, and you have so many feelings about it, and this week I had some really clarifying feelings about it finally. I had some really clarifying feelings about it finally. So I stumbled across a social media conversation and if anyone figures out what the original post was and who the original poster was, don't go after anybody. I admire and appreciate so much the person who started the conversation. While I'm grateful it's a conversation that's being had, I was a little disappointed at the feedback and realized how badly we need to have a conversation or we need to have ongoing conversations.

Speaker 1:

Right. Are you saying that this is not about the individuals involved in that conversation, because this is a conversation that's like way larger? You're looking at the issues that go way beyond this conversation and the people involved in it and it's not a personal. It's not. It's not personally directed at them.

Speaker 2:

It's right, Exactly, and I think a lot of the the response was really a regurgitation of of the culture and what people know Right and, and we really can't. Well-meaning Right, Well-meaning, yes, Right and, and I I absolutely applaud the author for for starting the conversation and giving space for it, but the post started out kind of talking about men Christian men, conservative, Anabaptist men probably and what their sins look like Persistent struggles yeah yeah Well, and you know, I mean, I don't know if I'll ever not be a little bit triggered by the quote moral failures.

Speaker 2:

Like the fact that men in the church get by with quote moral failures is something dude. I don't understand it's passed over.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yes.

Speaker 2:

But anyway. Anyway, the question then was asked so what about women? What tend to be more sins, temptations that women face? And, to be fair, I'm not sure that I really like looking at weaknesses as sins, and so I think that was part of, maybe, my reaction to it.

Speaker 2:

But a lot of the voices in that thread claim that women tend to manipulate, they tend to control, they tend to be passive aggressive. I mean, according to that thread, they tend to be passive aggressive. I mean, according to that thread, common Temptations and Sin of Mennonite Women. We're taking ourselves too seriously. Even worse and I think this was like this one always like gets me really deep. But the comments about how women are just merely emotional creatures and we need to learn to trust the men in our lives better. And, to be fair, I was triggered. I knew I was triggered, like this was difficult for me.

Speaker 2:

While I was so grateful that the conversation was being had, I was struggling and the thing about manipulative and passive aggressive women to me is really loaded and nuanced. It's both loaded and nuanced Like there's so many contributing factors to it years ago that when you look at the most submissive women that you know in your culture, many of them kind of have the whole manipulation and the passive aggressive thing down pat because that's the only way they can get their needs met. It's not safe to ask and we all know that the world loves a submissive woman. The world loves this, but oh howdy boy if you catch her being passive, aggressive at the wrong time, everybody throws her under the bus, and that was difficult for me realizing that, because I realized that that's literally the tools we are taught.

Speaker 1:

We're taught not to be direct. We're taught not to ask for what we want. We're taught to wait until somebody else gives us permission. Yeah, we're taught all these things about denying our wants, needs and desires which, because we're human, are going to come out sideways if we don't acknowledge them. And what also strikes me about this thread, this conversation and again, it's not about this thread specifically, but about this thread as an example of many, many, many, many centuries of conversations like these Right the way the conversation is framed, it distracts from the men who manipulate, control and are passive, aggressive.

Speaker 2:

It also distracts from the men who mock a woman who speaks her mind Absolutely. And it distracts from the men who shut down women and call it nagging Right.

Speaker 1:

Right women and call it nagging Right right. I see this even in conversations about. Well, one of my guilty pleasures is watching dating reality TV shows. I love it, and what I enjoy more than the show is hearing the conversations, hearing the discussion of the show, what happens on the show by viewers.

Speaker 1:

And I'm thinking of a particular situation where a woman was being criticized for behaving a certain way in a situation. And yet when I think about what could have happened if she had behaved the exact opposite way for what she was being criticized for, if she had reacted differently, there would have been a whole different set of criticisms. I think she could not escape criticism, even though she was not the one who was violating boundaries. She was not the instigator in that situation. Yet the judgment was on her for how she was reacting to the person who was instigating things. I think that's what's so frustrating about this is when women are either explicitly told or encouraged or somehow are conditioned to act in a certain way and then criticized when they do. But if they were to act in a different way, that would also be criticized, and that's the double bind. That's why it feels like femininity in the context of patriarchy is a trap and you're going to be criticized whether you fit right into it or you don't Right.

Speaker 2:

Isn't that so true? Because something I've heard numerous wives tell me is that for years, for years, they've tried to ask for whatever the need might have been. For years, they tried every way imaginable and it wasn't heard. It wasn't heard. Finally, the wife is done. She was probably in therapy, she got stronger. Finally she's tired. She's done. Now the marriage is in a crisis situation and, oh, all of a sudden, the husband makes the changes she's been asking for for 10 years and, dare say, I just always wanted you to be honest with me. I hear this so often and it lands so Insincerely, and offensive too.

Speaker 1:

It's condescending, it's like it's an insult to our intelligence.

Speaker 2:

Right. For 10 years, you could not hear what was being requested. You couldn't hear me or you didn't you ignored it.

Speaker 1:

Ignored it maybe.

Speaker 2:

And now you're telling me that you didn't make changes because I just wasn't being honest enough, when, if a woman is too honest or blunt, they will also be labeled as Jezebels, annoying, nagging or just simply too much. And something else that came up on this thread was the whole notion that we aren't confident enough in who we are Like. If we would just understand who we are in God, we would not have to go around looking for approval from other people.

Speaker 1:

Which blows my mind, because conformity to group norms is how you show your moral worth. How do we?

Speaker 2:

talk to young. How do we talk to young females from toddler to 20? We teach them to conform, we teach them to be submissive, we teach them to be silent, to not take up a lot of space, and we tell them that that I mean, like in communication theory, a very fundamental part of it is that we learn about ourselves through what other people reflect back to us. That is simply a part of learning. That's normal. That is a normal part of human interaction. In fact, especially for kids, it's a healthy part of human interaction. In fact, especially for kids, it's a healthy part of human interaction. I mean kids should assume that the adults in the world know what they're talking about and that they're trustworthy. What is less than normal is the way many adults speak to children and what we tell kids about themselves.

Speaker 1:

Especially when it's the shame-based. You're a sinner. Your righteousness is like filthy rags.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Or if you can't do this and wear a skirt and be modest, then you should not do that activity. Or oh, that uncle is weird, make sure you wear a longer skirt, or I mean we could go on all day about those messages that were given. So when the communication or the reflection that we receive as kids, when that is dysfunctional or murky, how can we go into adulthood understanding who we are and being confident in that? Like I'm not so sure that this is just simply about knowing who you are in Jesus, because the thing is, if you reach adulthood and you are so confused about who you are now, if only you'd be a better Christian, you would now understand and you would be more confident.

Speaker 2:

Never mind all these messages we've given to our kids, and I suggest that perhaps what is reflected back to the female child is what is really problematic and maybe is what needs to be discussed. And for me, the song that I think about that makes me cringe the most and the song I never taught my kids is Jesus first, yourself last and others in between, yourself last and others in between. That messed with my brain for so long I literally believed. Unless everyone else in the room was happy. I had no business going after what I needed.

Speaker 1:

I think that's so true for so many of us, and it's so normalized that it's the water we swim in that we don't even see it, we don't recognize it, and perhaps to be fair, it's not just in the conservative Anabaptist world.

Speaker 2:

I think it's very much alive out in mainstream culture. Oh, yes, absolutely we just get maybe a good dosage of the Christian language mixed in with it Right, right, oh, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

This goes way beyond a conservative Anabaptist context and even a religious context. But yes, it gets cranked up, especially when your eternal salvation or damnation hangs on it, or the happiness in your marriage.

Speaker 2:

the happiness in your marriage Like invariably, if the marriage is not blissful it's because the wife isn't doing her crap right. Right she's not making his favorite dinner, or putting out enough, or you know, whatever it is, whatever it is.

Speaker 1:

Right. So I guess, to sum up, the social norm we're taking issue with here today is this idea that somehow women uniquely struggle with manipulation and are being manipulative and passive aggressive. And we are saying we don't agree that this is not necessarily true, but that accusation reflects the double blind that's placed on women by society in lots of places and it is the standard accusation against any woman who dares to have an independent thought, desire or need. I think it's really important to think about what is really going on, what women are being accused of being manipulative, what is really going on, and we came up with a list of the things that can be lurking behind the accusation of being manipulative or passive aggressive and what that might be distracting us from.

Speaker 2:

they may tend to have stronger manipulative and passive aggressive tendencies. So I'm not we're not denying that. We're not denying that reality.

Speaker 1:

That can be the case.

Speaker 2:

Yes, right, but we are pushing back because this is literally what they were taught to do. You cannot teach someone to do something for the first 20 years of their life and then, when they actually perform it, the following 20 years, call it a sin.

Speaker 1:

I agree, and you know, one of the things that comes to mind, one of the ways that this is normalized and we are socialized into this way of being, is the concept of breaking the child's will.

Speaker 1:

Dl and Crispin Mayfield are doing a fantastic podcast series on this topic.

Speaker 1:

They've named this phenomenon, that they are talking about religious, authoritarian parenting, and when we look at what it means to break a child's will and the way it's used in these settings and we look at what we know about child development, child brain development, what we can see is that it is literally a process of using trauma to program a child's nervous system to repress their wants, needs and desires.

Speaker 1:

It doesn't mean that they go away. It just means they're going to come out sideways. They might come out in behavioral issues, they might come out as health issues, a whole range of things, right. But I think it's so important to think about this and I'm not saying that parents who have been using this method for the last how many decades are wishing their children harm or trying to do their children harm. I understand they are doing what they know to be best for the children, but for anyone who does want the best for their children, it's really important to think about what that is doing. So one of the things that breaking a child's will and we're talking here about essentially spanking a young child, often a toddler, until they stop resisting the spanking.

Speaker 2:

The language I would have heard growing up was until they give up. Like literally their body literally just gives up. Their body stops.

Speaker 1:

And I know some children respond to that more quickly than others. I know with my children. If anyone ever tried to break my children's will, it would kill them. Like, what is it doing to children's nervous system? A? It teaches the nervous system to cooperate with people who are hurting you and to see it as love. Right, then we wonder why these kids grow up and find themselves in abusive relationships. Well, guess what? It's what they're accustomed to. It also conditions the nervous system to associate this violent love quote unquote love with survival. So children whose will is broken appear to voluntarily sacrifice their wants, needs and desires. But what's really going on is that their nervous system is so bent on survival that it's saying it is more scary to say I need this, I want this, than to ignore those needs and wants so that I'm not hurt. And then for the rest of our lives, an environment or a relationship where someone who claims to love us is also controlling us, hurting us, taking advantage of us, just feels normal to our nervous system and we will self-flagellate if we're not sufficiently submissive or kind or accommodating enough and it completely distracts. It distracts from the abusive behavior and so what we also see when we zoom out a little bit under this dynamic.

Speaker 1:

Women and children or the lower you are in the hierarchy. You're I doing wrong? What can I do differently? She's the one who's expected to adjust her behavior. The marriage books are mostly written for women, to tell women what to do and what they need to change.

Speaker 1:

And if there's family trouble between parents and children maybe teens, young adults the children are expected to forgive and honor, which is code for ignoring their own needs, and the children are expected to forgive and honor, which is code for ignoring their own needs. And the children are expected to do this regardless of the parent's dysfunction. What children in these situations are told so often is well, you just need to forgive. Well, god will deal with them and their behavior, even if they're not acting right toward you. You just do what you're supposed to do. And what you're supposed to do is to ignore your own needs, ignore your basic need for safety and connection and belonging. And so these dynamics are not a mystery.

Speaker 1:

These dynamics create a cultural norm, and I just think of all the really well-meaning parents out there who are reading the Michael Pearl books and the James Dobson books because they so deeply want to do right by their children.

Speaker 1:

And what those books are telling them to do is to stop listening to their own inner wisdom, stop listening to what they know about their own children, what they know about their own situation, and take this one-size-fits-all abusive manual and apply it to their children. And I just plead with parents out there who might find themselves in that situation Remember, your child is going to grow up and one day your child is going to remember this. And what do you want your child to associate you with? Do you want your child to associate you with safety and connection, or do you want them to think of you with fear and threat of violence? Because when children are little, they will ignore the dysfunction to get their basic needs met. But once children grow up, they're no longer dependent on you. And if you don't have a genuine caring relationship with them when they're young, you won't have that when they're older either.

Speaker 2:

It's so true. It's so true. And the other thing that I think is important to point out here is we like to talk about women being passive, aggressive and manipulative, but this system also creates manipulative and passive aggressive tendencies in men. Men just don't get called out on it. It's there, it's there, it is so there. They just don't get called out on it. We call it many things. Several years ago it was popular to call it leveraging everything for God. I mean, it was a whole leadership thing. It was absolutely manipulating people to get what you wanted in your business or in your church. So I feel like this system. While the women often are the ones that get in trouble for it, the men are just as passive, aggressive and manipulative as the women are. We just don't call it out. We just don't name it for what it is.

Speaker 1:

Right, right, we call it out, we just don't name it for what it is Right. Right, we call it leadership, right.

Speaker 2:

So the other part of this that I think is interesting is, under this dynamic, we forget about those of us who are so honest, right because we're so afraid to lie. It's not in our nature to be passive, aggressive. It's not in our nature to manipulate, because we just kind of are honest. What's fascinating, or what I have observed to be fascinating, is for myself. I reached a point where I realized I was being more honest than anyone else in the room and for whatever it's worth, for whoever needs to hear this, you do not owe your honesty to anybody. If someone else does not want to be honest with you, you do not owe them honesty. It took me way too long to learn that, but when I did learn that, I started pulling back. I tried very cautiously to set up boundaries. Guess who was being manipulative and passive, aggressive now?

Speaker 1:

When you talk about nobody owes you, don't owe your honesty to anybody.

Speaker 1:

How was that that you said that? Are you saying there that when you sense that you're dealing with a situation where the other party or parties are not engaging in good faith, they have an agenda that does not have your best interest at heart, that at that point being honest and vulnerable and all these things that are great in a healthy relationship suddenly become weaponized against you or at risk of being weaponized against you? And this is where I think again, when everything is focused on introspection and saying, well, am I doing right? I can't criticize anyone else until I've got it right, right, and I've got to ignore the dysfunction, we've got to be aware when someone, especially someone in authority, someone with more power, does not have our best interests at heart, and we have to engage differently in those situations, because any vulnerability on your part then will suddenly be weaponized against you.

Speaker 1:

And so this is a time for radical acceptance, to say I wish this person would really love me genuinely and have my best interests at heart, but I have to radically accept that is not what I'm dealing with here.

Speaker 2:

Right, and I think that's a good clarification. And thanks for saying that, because, absolutely, like with my kids, my close family, my close friend group, absolutely I think it's important to be honest with them. But I get honesty in return, right, right. And I think I used to believe that if I could just be honest enough, if I could be clear enough, if I could explain it enough, I could get the powers that were to understand Right.

Speaker 1:

Because it's just a misunderstanding, right, that's all that we're dealing with. That would be so nice if that were the case, but when someone is determined not to see your perspective, it doesn't matter. Someone and said you know, I will be honest about my dysfunction growing up when you tell me about your dysfunction.

Speaker 2:

The conversation ended. So, yeah, no, we're not going to talk about a one-sided issue here, when you're collecting information to be used against me and probably I distrust those in power the most but there is no preacher, there is no pastor, there is no leader who I would feel is deserving of my honesty if they're not being honest in return. Absolutely, absolutely. And so we've talked about the fact that oftentimes, growing up, the only tools we've been given are the passive, aggressive, the manipulative skills. That's kind of what we've been given. But even when I'm not using those tools, even when I'm trying to learn a new way, now I'm not as easy to control, now I am still being told I'm manipulative and I think for me, boundaries was this whole thing and I was afraid of it, that I, I think in my head I thought people would cheer when I set my first boundaries, because it felt like this big was a huge accomplishment. Yeah, yes, yes, right, right, yeah. And newsflash no one's going to cheer.

Speaker 2:

Except maybe my therapist did. I almost heard them cheering. But this idea that women are always too much or never enough, you know that game just never gets old, does it? It actually does. And in that whole thread there was mention of being of women wanting to be too competitive and wanting to have the best gardens or the best cook or the best seamstress, whatever it was. Why is it wrong for women to be competitive or excel? When men do this, we call them leaders. Good managers. Good managers Successful.

Speaker 1:

And if women?

Speaker 2:

don't do this. If women have messy houses, we talk about that too, but we're supposed to strive for this certain level of mediocrity.

Speaker 1:

Is it mediocrity, or is it we're supposed to strive for this level of conformity, to where we do not stand out for anything and we just blend into the furniture? I kind of think that's what it is.

Speaker 2:

I'm telling you there's not a win.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think that is something that I have learned often the hard way. When I'm in a situation and I feel like everything that I'm saying is being taken the wrong way or is coming somehow being weaponized, when it comes back at me, I don't need to continue engaging in the conversation. I can say you know what? I think we need to take a break and maybe come back to this later. You don't have to make any accusations. You don't have to. You can just stop playing the game. You can stop engaging because if someone doesn't want to reach a mutual understanding with you, you're wasting your breath. You're wasting your breath trying to get your point across.

Speaker 2:

I think maybe we have been conditioned to be easy, to be low maintenance, to the point that when you're not easy it kind of creates its own monster. I was watching a movie and the guy had ditched the girl for another woman and she met him on the street and she just said you know, I have to ask you, I have to ask you this question why her? So he looks at the ex and the new girlfriend was across the street, out of hearing distance, so he's like looking between the two of them and he finally goes and shrugs his shoulder and says she's, and it just hung there. But it was like I felt he was wanting to say she's easy.

Speaker 1:

She doesn't demand anything of me, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And I think we need to be aware of that dynamic. I am not advocating for being high maintenance and dramatic and you know, just a pain in the butt, I'm not advocating for that. But if there's not enough space for you to be in the room, we have a problem. If there's not enough space for each person to be in that relationship, we have a problem.

Speaker 1:

Right, no-transcript that gets accusation gets thrown at women.

Speaker 2:

Right Is they get treated in manipulative and passive aggressive ways and then, when they are finally fed up with it, right after they went to counseling and figured out that, oh, there's a better way to live, there's a better way to show up, right, or they reach a breaking point and they snap right.

Speaker 1:

Well, now they're the crazy one. Out that, oh, there's a better way to live, there's a better way to show up Right. Or they reach a breaking point and they snap right. Well, now they're the crazy one. They're the ones who are so irrational. And how can anyone be expected to put up with someone like that? And what's swept under the rug is all the dysfunction that brought us to that point.

Speaker 1:

The gaslighting yeah, and I think sometimes that gaslighting and I guess it's gaslighting light but it's such a normal part of the way that some men, maybe even many men, interact with women.

Speaker 2:

they don't even notice it, and I think women interact with women that way sometimes too. Right, right, right, yeah Right.

Speaker 1:

So if these are the kinds of things that are going on, if these are the kinds of dynamics that accusations of being passive, aggressive or manipulative are distracting us from, if this is not how we want to show up in the world, how are we supposed to show up? How are we supposed to get our needs met? Are we supposed to be direct, or is that going to be seen as being aggressive? What is it that we're supposed to be? Because it starts to suspiciously look like women are just not supposed to have any needs or desires, and I think we need to be really aware of when we're in a system that wants to keep us spinning in this cycle of confusion and self-flagellation and thinking that we're just not doing it right, why can't we get it right? Why do we keep failing? If we were doing it right, the situation would resolve. And taking all that blame on without looking at who is benefiting from our confusion yeah, who's benefiting at our expense.

Speaker 1:

And what are they getting out of us being so focused on trying to get it just right? And we never will, because we're human right and that keeps us focused on this and keeps us distracted from the bigger, more serious issues that are going on. Right, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

So the next question is how do we deal with this, how do we get out of it, how do we move on? And, to be very clear, this is something I personally am very aware of, both in myself and in other women and, quite frankly, men. Something I've been practicing is the art of giving both myself and others a lot of grace. I can recognize it and I can set my own boundaries. I can recognize it in myself and stop it and try again, try something different.

Speaker 2:

But the best way I know to compare it to is so I firmly believe that you should never, ever, ever, report a mother who's stealing food because you know she's trying to feed her kids. Is it a good or a healthy thing she's doing? Not really, but you know what? That system's even more of a mess. So I have all the grace for a single mom trying to feed her family and I kind of look at it the same way here. Can I recognize it, can I see it? But can I shame the system or push against the system, instead of simply shaming the person who's committing the act, the person?

Speaker 1:

who's just trying to survive.

Speaker 2:

Right, right, and I do think it's very important for those of us who are aware of it to just hold it with a lot of grace, because it takes time for a toddler to learn how to walk and not fall every few steps. It takes time for a toddler to learn how to walk and not fall Every few steps. It takes adults a little bit of time to learn new skills. I think there's something really magical that happens when you start recognizing something and you see it, but you're sitting here unsure what to do with it. It's okay to be in that space. What to do with it? It's okay to be in that space. In fact, I think that space is what creates the most dynamic changes.

Speaker 1:

So it's okay to be there, and I think what you're saying there about being willing to sit in that space of not knowing is maybe connected to our impulse to blame an individual and not the system that is responsible, that made their actions necessary.

Speaker 1:

I think one of the reasons we often focus on the individual rather than the system is because it's so much easier to blame it on one person. When we say the system is doing it, it's not any one thing that we can point at and say that is to blame. It's the million and one bricks in the wall. And so when we start looking at the system that is toxic, a system that's dysfunctional, rather than just scapegoating an individual, it gets way more messy and it is not a simple solution. But I think the more we are willing to sit with the not knowing, the more we're willing to sit and go hang on. What's going on here let's step back and take a minute to think about this the more we'll be able to deal with the complexity of realizing that a problem is systemic. And also that might be the point at which we decide I can be part of the solution or I can't, and it's time for me to move on.

Speaker 2:

I do think and I almost say this kind of as a warning I do think the longer you sit there, you'll have a variety of emotions. You'll probably run into anger, but when that anger dissolves, you're going to have grief. There's parts of this system that I grieve over and I feel lost for what it has brought to my life and taken from your life. And taken from my life Mm-hmm. So I don't want to make it sound like this is rainbows and unicorns. In fact, I would recommend you actually find a therapist, because it's hard and it's scary.

Speaker 1:

You need that support. You need that moral support of another person.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but there's sadness, there's grief involved, and don't let the anger scare you. You can be angry, and I quote, not sin, because behind that anger, I think are some very important emotions and very important things that need to be looked at.

Speaker 1:

Well, and I'm so glad you brought up emotions, because I think I said sit and think, but probably at that point it's time to sit and feel. Just because we feel a lot of anger, it doesn't mean that it will always be there, and in fact, the more we embrace it rather than pushing it away, the more we sit there and let it feel it in our bodies, the sooner it will work its way through our system and then we can go on and the same with grief and all these other emotions that we're so often encouraged to repress. And when I say feel them, I'm not saying go punch somebody in the face, but there is a way to sit with these feelings journal talk, go out in the field and scream. There are ways to express it, and physically, which is good. That does not mean hurting someone else, and I think we often conflate those two, as though you can't be angry without hurting someone, and that's not true.

Speaker 1:

And the more you repress that, the more it builds up. So I think I agree, letting those feelings and understanding it's going to be a storm, it's going to be really, really uncomfortable. This is why we choose dysfunctional situations, right, because those emotions are scary, especially when we're not used to. We haven't had it modeled for us how to deal with those difficult emotions. We haven't had it modeled for us how to deal with those difficult emotions. We feel alone in them. I mean it is genuinely scary. So I think it's so important to acknowledge that.

Speaker 2:

But that on the other side, and it might not take as long to get to the other side as it feels like it does in the moment. And I would even suggest that trying to bypass those emotions is what really causes the damage. Yes, and if you do try to bypass them, they're going to come out sideways.

Speaker 1:

So once we've made space for those difficult emotions, it can be helpful to kind of get our brains around what it is that is going on in these situations. And I think we often aren't aware enough of how nervous those in power and in a patriarchal society, that's men get when women talk to each other, when women speak honestly and frankly with each other. I mean, I think about all the ways that we are told to keep private things private. You know what happens behind. You know the family, what happens in the family home stays there, and often what it's not stated but effectively what that does, it keeps the most vulnerable people away from outside help. So I think when we hear of women being called controlling or manipulative, we need to think about the fact that those accusations can be projections of the manipulation or the desire to control that the accuser is engaged with.

Speaker 2:

So we know that there is power when women start talking, and this does oftentimes give power to the ones who are victimized or feel stuck. But I think it's also a good way to shift some of the responsibility and open the windows to what is actually happening when those in power are actually trying to control their minions.

Speaker 1:

Is it that we need to be aware that those in power get nervous when their underlings start talking, but we need to talk anyway.

Speaker 2:

Right, we need to talk anyway, and I think the thing that happens is, I think, so often. I remember being so accustomed to being controlled and being told what to do that it was hard for me to order food or it was hard for me to make decisions about just minor details.

Speaker 1:

I remember being absolutely overwhelmed and I think as we gain confidence, absolutely overwhelmed and I think as we gain confidence and as we and is it as we learn, it's not a big deal if we do mess up. It's not the end of the world. Lightning will not strike. We are still worthy of respect, even if we get something wrong. Yeah, human dignity.

Speaker 2:

Exactly, yeah, right, right. And of course, of course there are going to be times where, yeah, I am guilty of manipulation, absolutely, but I think oftentimes the ones who accuse are the ones who are most afraid of losing power, because, typically, the rest of the world is trying to learn how to set boundaries and how to gain strength and move beyond that sphere of control.

Speaker 1:

Right, and so I think shame and guilt are often used to manipulate and control the most well-meaning, the most conscientious people, and it really is effective at distracting from the real problem, because if someone cares about doing the right thing, they will most likely respond to guilt and shame.

Speaker 2:

Especially if it's wrapped around your relationship with God, if it's wrapped around your relationship with the greater community. For those of us who are more conscientious, that will absolutely become a way to control until you are ready to let go of that.

Speaker 1:

Right, and I think it can be helpful to remember that the stronger the threats, the stronger the tactics, probably the greater their fear that you're about to slip out from under their control. Fear that you're about to slip out from under their control, and so the more they dismiss, undermine, invalidate, malign you, the more likely you're on the right track. So how do we make this shift, then, to critique the system instead of the women who are struggling within it, or, we could even say, and men too, right, people who are using manipulation, because that is the only tool they have to get their needs met? How do we make that shift to start critiquing the system instead of the individuals within it? So I just learned a new term the other day, and it's phobia indoctrination. This sounds good, right?

Speaker 1:

One example that I think of is someone that I knew a long time ago would get her young child to clean his plate, do whatever little thing he needed to do, by threatening him with the brown cow. The brown cow would come to get him. So it's basically inventing a boogeyman, right, right, to get to manipulate the child into eating his dinner or whatever it was, and I think that is done to us so often in religious communities on a much broader scale and it's called phobia indoctrination. It's that thing like if you go out without your head covering you're going to get attacked, you're going to get something terrible is going to happen to you. So when we're being threatened with the brown cow, we can see it as phobia indoctrination for what it is. And if there's no evidence for it, if it's not an actual threat or an actual danger for it, if it's not an actual threat or an actual danger.

Speaker 2:

It's probably about control and I think for many of us if something went wrong, it was obvious that someone messed up and it was probably me, because the system works Jesus takes care of you if you just do the right thing, and I think it's important to realize that can really stick. But I think, like you said, understanding that it's just the brown cow and he's not even real, what it is.

Speaker 1:

then we can ask ourselves what are they getting out of the situation and what am I getting out of it? Because if what I'm getting out of it is approval or social acceptance, then once I recognize it, I can decide if that's worth it to me, if that's what I really want, or if I'm willing to get it wrong, willing to be the bad guy.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. And last of all, I think it's so important to remember that our liberation liberates other people. It liberates our kids, it liberates our friends and it even liberates the men around us. And I think learning to take up the space that you've been given and not be apologetic for it has been one of the most key decisions that I've made and I hope in some way our listeners can also feel liberated, feel worthy to take up the space that they have in life and to own that.

Speaker 1:

Because, really, what we're talking about here is the space to have authentic relationships. Right, the space to have honest relationships and safe relationships where you can be vulnerable. Right the space to have honest relationships and safe relationships where you can be vulnerable.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 1:

A book I read recently that really seems relevant to this conversation is On Our Best Behavior the Seven Deadly Sins and the Price Women Pay to Be Good by Elise Lowen. I'll link it in the show notes. What I like about it is how it goes into the history of religious institutions and how that list of seven deadly sins was how it came to be, and then looks at the social, cultural, the historic elements of all that, and I think it's a way to shift the conventional perspective and just see relationship dynamics in a different way.

Speaker 2:

And I think we all want better for our kids and for those that come after us, and I worry that if we don't get a handle on this, the younger generation is not going to be attracted to religion.

Speaker 1:

Right, right, because if there's anything Gen Z is good at, it is calling out the BS. Yeah, they are so good at that, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And I love it I love it.

Speaker 1:

Good for them, good for them. We should be proud of raising a generation of people who say no to illegitimate authority, to tyrannical authority. That is something to be proud of.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely so. We'd love to hear from you what is your relationship with the whole idea of manipulation. What do you think of? What comes up in your mind? What did we forget to talk about? Here, Right, what did we there's?

Speaker 1:

so much more to say.

Speaker 2:

And we'd love to hear from you.

Speaker 1:

So send us a text and we'll be back next week.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for spending time with us today. The resources and materials we've mentioned are linked in the show notes and on Facebook at Uncovered Life Beyond.

Speaker 1:

What are your thoughts about college and recovery from high demand religion? We know you have your own questions and experiences and we want to talk about the topics that matter to you. Share them with us at uncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom. That's uncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.

Speaker 2:

If you enjoyed today's show and found value in it, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast app. This helps others find the show While you're there. Subscribe to our podcast so you never miss an episode Until next time.

Speaker 1:

stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward. Thank you,

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