Uncovered: Life Beyond

24. Raging Against the Inevitable: When He Gets No Respect

• Naomi and Rebecca • Episode 24

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If your win this week is a kitchen floor that's clean for the first time in ages, you've found your people! We start this episode with a pop culture minute where we wonder aloud about  the Royal Family's odd handling of Kate Middleton's recent absence from the public eye as well as the public's reaction to the public's reaction. Then we shift our focus to analyze a short video clip of a domestic argument and the responses it prompted on social media. We discuss some of the different ways respect is defined and interpreted in families and by leaders, and we reflect on what we have personally observed about double standards in expectations for socially acceptable behavior. What kind of risks come with upholding a "united front" at all costs? What does it mean when popular narratives have a survivorship bias and what is the minimum we all deserve in our relationships? As always, we have more questions than answers, and we hope you'll join us as we explore them together.

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Speaker 1:

This is Rebecca and this is Naomi. We're 40-something moms and first cousins who know what it's like to veer off the path assigned to us.

Speaker 2:

We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college and career, as we questioned our faith traditions while exploring new identities and ways of seeing the world.

Speaker 1:

Without any maps for either of us to follow. We've had to figure things out as we go and appreciate that detours and dead ends are essential to the path Along the way, we've uncovered a few insights we want to share with fellow travelers.

Speaker 2:

We want to talk about the questions we didn't know who to ask and the options we didn't know we had.

Speaker 1:

So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking things up, we are here to cheer you on and assure you that the best is yet to come. Welcome to Uncovered Life Beyond. Hello everyone, welcome back to Uncovered Life Beyond. This is Naomi and this is Rebecca.

Speaker 2:

I think first of all, we should just start off by applauding ourselves for our consistency, that we have gone on right now with putting out podcasts Like what are we even doing in life?

Speaker 1:

It's amazing, I'm shocked.

Speaker 2:

But I think whatever fails we've got going on, we can call this a win. That's right Absolutely. I mean like obviously we love our people.

Speaker 1:

We love our people and we are so on top of things. My kitchen floor is clean for the first time in months. Congratulations, that's also a win. It is such a win. So I think we are on top of things, whatever else might not be happening Forgetting the podcast out and getting my kitchen floor cleaned.

Speaker 2:

So celebrate it, man Celebrate it.

Speaker 1:

So what's been on your mind? Okay, so like.

Speaker 2:

I am not proud of this. In fact, I'm slightly embarrassed about this, but where the heck is Kate Middleton? I'm embarrassed that I care this much and I am embarrassed that I follow all these rabbit trails, but where is she? People?

Speaker 1:

Well, and the funny thing is that there are very legitimate explanations for where she is, but the way the PR is handled is where all the questions are coming from, right, and we know she was not the one that edited the picture.

Speaker 2:

Well, okay, we don't know that, but come on, come on. And even if she did edit the picture, there were other people who saw it and had to approve it. Yet they throw her under the bus for it. Is she the most easy to forgive? Is that? Is that the deal? She's at the bottom of the pecking order. But she's also the best light Right.

Speaker 1:

Which makes her especially easy for the, for the firm, for the family to hang out to take all the hits.

Speaker 2:

What makes me crazy is, since 2019, there's been rumors about William having an affair and it just keeps circulating, like just just, it just keeps circulating. If there was a rumor about Harry having an affair, who? Can you even imagine? Yeah, I think right now Harry and Meghan are looking pretty damn smart Like whether or not I approve of the way they made their exit. It's making more and more sense.

Speaker 1:

Right. It just reminds me, when you know here, when things come out about the royal family a little bit like the Amish themed romance novels we're talking about you know, the further you are from a situation, whether that is a royal family, culture or a religious enclave in the United States, the easier it is to think of it in very simplistic ways, right, and the easier it is to speculate and the easier it is to have a strongly held opinion about it you know whether it's a good thing or a bad thing.

Speaker 1:

I mean, as we find so often in our own lives, the closer we get, the more complicated things are, and I can't help but think about that in this situation too.

Speaker 2:

I agree. I think the one thing that I keep not understanding, though, is how many people are like oh, just let them alone, and kind of making excuses, and you know whatever Kind of criticizing or at least calling into question the people who are paying attention to it. Or asking questions, or asking questions. Sure, I mean, the AP literally did a kill on that picture. Right Like that doesn't happen.

Speaker 1:

Right Like there is there's there's something that says something's afoot, right, something's afoot. We don't know what, but something is.

Speaker 2:

Right, and I can't help but think about the way we so easily excuse and give quote leaders passes that we would never give other people.

Speaker 1:

I feel like the bar for leadership is so low, it's too high Daily, ok, ok, they get the benefit of every doubt.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes, yeah, and I don't understand it. It feels like if it doesn't matter. If you're a leader of a freaking country, well you know figure heads for it. Or if you are a church leader or a community leader, affairs are easily forgiven, Like it is shocking how easily affairs are forgiven. We have seen literal abuse being forgiven, Like why do we not expect more from our leaders? What is wrong with us that the bar is so low?

Speaker 1:

You know that's kind of a natural segue into our topic today. Oh it kind of is.

Speaker 2:

Maybe we will answer our questions. If we just talk about our topic, which, what is our topic Now? I am, you know, a little curious.

Speaker 1:

So there was a clip on Twitter, Sorry X formerly Twitter.

Speaker 2:

Another problematic thing, but go ahead Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

And this clip. It appears to be from sitcom or something like that, and I have no idea what show this is from. So if somebody knows, maybe you can enlighten us and we'll put links to all this in the show notes. But let's just go and play this clip and then we'll chat about it. It's like like one minute clip and the commentary is that the world needs more dads like this in our homes, and so let's see if we agree.

Speaker 2:

You got a book report, buddy. It's late, mom, so I can stay up.

Speaker 1:

Okay, I'm going to pause here and just set the scene. The scene is dad is working in the kitchen, the son is kind of looks like a younger teen age son is playing video games and the dad's just telling his son it's time to do the homework and the son is not so excited.

Speaker 2:

Hey, I can't see Turn it off. Mom put it up, I was with him.

Speaker 1:

Just let him finish, honey. And now the son continues to play. And now the dad reaches over to the game console and pulls it out, rocks at the trash can and pours milk all over the make sure it's sitting in the book report. Yeah, the footsteps are the son's scurrying off to be the book report. The mom looks at the dad's horrified expression.

Speaker 2:

I think that's the end. Fearful. I think the mom holds a fearful expression.

Speaker 1:

I agree, I agree. So again, the commentary was the world needs more dads like this in our homes. And then, when you scroll down through the comments, there was a lot of support for that view, a lot of parents saying this is what I did, this is what more parents need to do, and the father's response to the child not wanting to do his homework is is something that we should be applauding and emulating. What stands out to you? What do you see happening in this clip?

Speaker 2:

So much dysfunction. I think we do the world such a great disservice when we treat kids this way.

Speaker 1:

What? Tell them to go to bed or do their homework?

Speaker 2:

When we demand, and somehow, somehow we treat the father, the man's rage, as a good thing, somehow we applaud that. Can you imagine if it would have been the female who would have behaved that way? And it's like we tell our boys, we tell our children that you got to listen, you got to listen, you got to listen. And we make them detach from themselves. We give them no sense of control, no sense of of engagement, and then one day they're adults and this is normal to them. The other thing that really stood out to me is this dad can demand respect and his kid has no say. His, his wife is even. The child's mother is even shut down. Men also seem to think they have the right to treat a woman that way If she doesn't dress how they think she should dress. They can also take advantage of women, they can also abuse women for all those reasons, and their anger is never questioned. I don't understand.

Speaker 1:

Isn't it almost like there are different definitions of respect? And this is something that's floated around on the internet I'm sure you've seen it and I don't think anybody knows where exactly it came from, who said it first? But this idea that there's these two definitions of respect, and sometimes people use respect to me and treating someone like a person, and sometimes they use respect to me and treating someone like an authority, and sometimes people who are used to being treated like an authority say if you won't respect me, I won't respect you, and they mean, if you won't treat me like an authority, if you won't treat me deferentially, I won't treat you like a person. Right, and they think they're being fair, but they aren't, and that's not okay. And along those lines, I think there are a lot of people out there, particularly men, who are confused about what a good relationship is and what it looks like, and what feels to them like being respected by a social inferior is actually someone being intimidated by them, and that's what a good relationship looks like to them.

Speaker 2:

Right, I think so often of the term power is not an issue until you don't have it. And I think it's easy, when you do have authority, to assume you hold all the power and expect people just to get in line. And yeah, obviously this is evident in the way we deal with kids, it's evident in purity culture, and men somehow seem to think they deserve, and we seem to think they deserve respect simply because they are.

Speaker 1:

Right, and I think assume is such a big part of that, because it's not even a conscious thought, it's just. This is just the way things are. This man in the clip and a lot of the people commenting on the Twitter thread may think he's being disrespected, when the reality is like his son is differentiating, right. He's becoming old enough to have desires and have a plan for the evening for himself, and he's no longer small enough to be intimidated by his father physically, and the son is discovering that, as is the father, and the father is desperately looking to assert his dominance in whatever he way he can, you know, even if it takes a childish outburst, because the father doesn't know how to relate to the child Except as someone who has absolute authority over him and his actions, and he doesn't know how else to relate to him, and I think that's tragic.

Speaker 2:

I think as well. It is tragic. It's sad because one day this same father is going to wonder and he's going to sing the blues because he doesn't have a relationship with his son. And of course, of course, a parent needs to remind kids. I have always tried to give my kids a heads up. Hey, do you think in 15 minutes you could take a break and help me with whatever it is? Why don't you set a timer? Or hey, when are you at a good stopping point? We really need to get your homework done. Or hey, I would like to talk to you about something is now a good time. There are so many ways you can nurture and guide Right Without anger. Somewhere this week I read a parent should actually expect rebellion in their child and I'm like, yeah, since when is rebellion this horrible thing?

Speaker 1:

Differentiating Right, and it's what I see as a father angry that another person in the home has wishes and desires apart from his Right, and rather than invest in a relationship and approach it from being on the same side, the same team as the son he is, he simply wants obedience on his own terms Right. And that's dehumanizing to the kid and the kid knows that on some level and it's setting up a contentious dynamic that is going to continue for the rest of their lives if something doesn't change.

Speaker 2:

Right. And the other thing that I don't think gets talked about is the emotional feed adrenaline that the man gets out of this Mm hmm, it's feeding something for him, mm hmm, and it's probably not healthy. And my guess is, if a man responds like this to his son, the son has seen him respond like that to his mother as well, and I think it's such a sad way to relate. I mean, this isn't relating in the world, this is relating in the home.

Speaker 2:

And it's such a sad dynamic. It's a dynamic, it's a sad relationship, it's a sad narrative. That that is what control looks like, when you have an adult who's literally losing control.

Speaker 1:

Right. What I see is the father modeling anger and dominance as a way to deal with conflict, and that's. There's no, no other creative way, no snow other collaborative way to deal with conflict.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 1:

I wonder sometimes if the reason that this kind of pushback from children is so triggering for so many men, and not just men. It's triggering for parents too, because I know it triggers me when my kids push back on something that's really important to me. But I think parents who have been in both roles have you know, as children they were bullied in in interactions. What I have observed at times is that they can revert back to their younger selves and it's like suddenly the father is seeing his young son as the bully Right and they got the idea that that's how grown men treat others, that they see as a social inferior. And so not only is it triggering on that level, but also on the level that now as a grown adult, as a parent, they've earned the right to bully others and in this and then the son is taking that right from them. So that's kind of complicated and maybe a lot of psycho battle.

Speaker 1:

I have just seen too many times where an adult sees himself as the victim when they're actually the bully Right, and I don't know what's going on there. But I've seen it happen enough times in enough different kinds of situations that I think there's got to be some kind of explanation for this, and I think part of it is that sometimes we don't realize that you can be right or you can have a relationship. Right, you can demand deference from everyone in the household, or you can model mutual deference, mutual respect. You can model how to attune to your loved ones and actually have a relationship. And that doesn't mean never creating limits for your kids. It doesn't mean that your kids can play video games 24, seven, right. But it means that you approach it in a way that respects the humanity of the sun and respects your own humanity in the process Right.

Speaker 2:

And the other thing that I often think about is we often hear parents who are like child, I feed you and I give you a roof over your head and you know, I give you all these things, when in fact, that that is part of the responsibility of a parent. And in addition to that, yeah, making sure your kid gets their homework done, yes, yes, that is a responsibility. But what if even a greater responsibility was making sure your kids emotional needs are met? What if even a greater responsibility is providing safety for your child? And there doesn't have to be that power struggle, unless that's the dynamic the father, the leader, whoever wants to facilitate and we've talked about, you know, this happening in churches and businesses and other organizations, and I feel like it's all connected. I feel like it's the way we teach particularly our boys to relate, and then we also teach women to relate a certain way.

Speaker 1:

Right. Some of the comments in the thread Were frightening. They were frightening and they referred to that dynamic. Maybe they didn't know that's what they were doing. I saw it as a reference to that gender dynamic. One comment was Women do not do what this woman did. It empowers the child to have no respect. Never ends well in the long run. Soon the child will tell you no and treat you like dirt. You will find yourself alone in your own self-made misery. And another person said the problem is the wife in this video. She needs to back up the father and I think that is a very interesting interpretation of what we see in the woman in this clip. As you said, I see fear. I see fear in her eyes and yet that is being interpreted as disrespect. How is it?

Speaker 2:

possible that the woman gets blamed here? How is it possible that the female carries the weight again?

Speaker 1:

You know the idea that parents should always be united, and obviously that's ideal. Of course it is, but there are a lot of parents who are standing by letting their children be abused in the name of a united front. Exactly, standing by and saying nothing out of a misplaced sense of loyalty is not okay, right.

Speaker 2:

So do you think this united front has caused more harm than good, or this notion of the united front?

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, absolutely. Am I endorsing parents fighting in front of children? No, but when one parent doesn't speak back against another parent's outburst or overreach or whatever inappropriate reaction, they're implicitly approving it. So I just want to say to anyone out there who finds himself in this situation and I think there are a lot of people in this situation where one parent is wanting to take a more gentle, collaborative, emotionally informed kind of approach to raising children and the other parent is interpreting all that as disrespect, right? I just want to say, if you are concerned about how your co-parent is treating your children and treating you, you have a greater responsibility to your children's welfare than to the ego of an overgrown a**.

Speaker 1:

What gets preached so often in pulpits, in child training books, in marriage books, is that you need to shut up and be nicer to the bully so he'll be nice. And we all know where that leads it doesn't lead to a good place. The reality is and many times women are frightened into silence by threats that if they say anything, their children will be taken from them. On and on and on. But the reality is, if another adult stands by and lets the abuse happen, the authorities will charge you with being an accomplice when it is revealed, when the abuse is revealed, you'll be charged with that. If you don't speak up, then the authorities are much, much more likely to take your children from you. Being silent and going along with it hurts everyone, right.

Speaker 2:

And I will say I am glad to see more pastors and church leaders who are getting into trouble, big trouble, for having protected and been silent about abuse. I am so glad that that's becoming more common and I hope it becomes standard.

Speaker 1:

What is so unfortunate is that some people do find themselves in a reality where the abusive person has more resources and can control the narrative, can have undue influence over the authorities, and so I do want to recognize that that exists. That situation exists and everybody's situation is a unique combination of all kinds of dynamics and realities and resources and possibilities, and so I don't want to say this as a blanket statement. I want to say it more as a way to empower anyone who feels they have some kind of moral obligation to cover up abuse. Right. I want to challenge that idea. Sometimes, out of safety, you have to combat abuse a different way other than going to the authorities, but the idea that God is somehow going to punish you if you stand up to a bully only serves the bully.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, and I think if you are one of those people who show up in court to support the abuser, which we know happens- shame on you.

Speaker 1:

Churches bring busloads of people to support the abuser.

Speaker 2:

Yes, shame on you. And if you have found yourself in that situation where you're sitting on the other side and your side is empty, I am so sorry.

Speaker 1:

You deserve so much better, and information getting out to the broader world is the best thing that can happen for you. There's a saying that sunshine is the best disinfectant, and that's also said in relation to sunshine laws. So information getting out and being known has such a clarifying effect, and so your story getting out is your best defense. So a shame that is used to keep you quiet is harming you. It's harming children or the dependents who you're responsible for. It's protecting the bully, and only you are going to know what the best way is to deal with that situation. We're not here to tell you what to do, but we are here to tell you you do not have a responsibility to support, you do not have a responsibility to protect a bully and the system that empowers them, absolutely, absolutely. And if God is giving you the responsibility to do that, what kind of God are you?

Speaker 2:

serving. Right, I feel like women are so often saddled with responsibility and yet they're given so little power. Right, like you know, if you just pray hard enough, or if you just pray the right way, or if you fast and pray, or if you say the right words or have enough sex or whatever, somehow the bully is going to change Somehow. The abuser is going to change what makes you think that that's effective. And we take we take one case out of 100 where the guy all of a sudden has a revelation that this is not okay, I need to change my ways and act like somehow the wife just prayed enough. How about the other 99 where that didn't work? Are we going to talk about those stories? Isn't there the theory of the survivor, where you only mention, you only talk about the survivors, and I feel like Christianity does this all the time and somehow we need to do a better job of recognizing those who did make it.

Speaker 1:

I recently saw a poem prose poem on Facebook that really spoke to me. It's by Rebecca Davis, untwisting scriptures. She's not someone I'm familiar with, but I really was impressed by this piece of her writing. Be sweet and quiet, they said. She was sweet and quiet, caring for the children. And then she asked for help. Try harder, they said what did you expect? And it goes on this way. Every time this character is asking for help, she's being told try harder. And she is being told be nicer, you're the problem. And so she got quieter. She went along with a program, she did everything they told her to do and then something terrible happened. What she had suspected came out and she had to escape with her and her kids to get help. And then the reaction was but you have the perfect family, you were always smiling, you were his biggest cheerleader. Either you were lying then or you're lying now, so either way you're a liar.

Speaker 2:

Rebecca Davis has been on my radar for a long time and I think she does important work and if anyone's looking for good reading material, I think she would be well worth your time.

Speaker 1:

I'll link to this so listeners can read it in its entirety. But I think this is such a striking image of what happens in so many situations, where women are told to solve problems by being nicer and deferring to bullies, and then, when their concerns do turn out to be true, they're still made out to be the villains.

Speaker 2:

I can't tell you how often, when I was disowned and blew the whistle and left, this narrative was given. And I can't also explain how we were literally punished for not walking in a straight line, for not smiling appropriately, for showing any signs of unhappiness or for whispering for help. All those were met with punishment, disgrace, shame. But then, when we finally walked away, we were ashamed for that too. And here's the thing it is not my job to uphold anyone's narrative of what they think a happy family should look like. Like my abuse, my blowing the whistle on abuse disappoints your narrative of a happy family.

Speaker 1:

Not my problem. It disrupts their fantasy of what your family is Right and somehow somehow they are suggesting it's your responsibility to uphold their fantasy. And I think this happens often, not only in cases of abuse, but also when there's divorce. Maybe it's not even an abusive situation, but there's divorce because there's been unhappiness and there is greater mourning for the loss of the fantasy than for the harm that was done. Right, Right.

Speaker 2:

And I want to clarify. I called it the theory of the survivor. It's actually called survivor bias. I just found a reading about survivor bias to be really fascinating and I am both intrigued and kind of sad about how much it's part of our culture. Both in our church and conservative cultures, but also in the world around us, we actively ignore the ones who didn't make it, because we don't want that to first of all be our reality or we don't want it to interrupt our fantasies.

Speaker 1:

Right. Is it considered a cognitive distortion? Probably yeah, and it's a way that our brain works to make sense of the world. That is problematic.

Speaker 2:

Right. I think at the end of the day not I think I know we all seek safety, right, whether you're the kid playing the computer game for too long, or whether you're the wife or probably even the raging man, if that's where you're at. We're looking for safety and I think these biases create that sense of safety and security in our brains Absolutely. And the survivor bias truly is something that a lot of religion is built on.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, unfortunately, so back to our whole conversation about respect. What is respect? Is it earned? Is it something that we should have because we're human? And maybe, maybe we need to just simply acknowledge there's different forms of it because, obviously, whether or not I appreciate the police officer, there's a certain amount of respect I will probably offer.

Speaker 1:

And for no other reason than he's holding a handheld peeling machine.

Speaker 2:

That too, and I think there is a certain probably a certain sense of respect for authority we can't get away from. But I would like to think that I operate more out of a respect for a person's humanity and I like to think that I'm working on insisting that in my relationships. That respect is also something I receive. A narrative I've been telling myself and others on occasion is you don't have to love me, you don't have to be kind to me, you don't even have to respect me. But I'm not going to show up for less than that anymore. And if the only way you can feel respected is by offering anger when your rules, when your demands aren't followed, it's not respected, it's fear, and I would challenge you that maybe that's not really the way you want to live your life. That's really not the way you want to build your relationships.

Speaker 1:

It's very difficult to love to genuinely love someone or something we fear, and certainly not healthy. For too long, parenting authority leadership has been taught as something that can legitimately strike fear into the hearts of those around them, and that way of running things certainly keeps order. But there's a lot of dysfunction right under the surface that keeps that system going.

Speaker 2:

Right, you know this is probably a subject for another day, another podcast, but I have long had issues with what popular leadership looks like today. What we define as leadership, in my opinion, john C Maxwell is a joke. I don't understand. I do not understand people, let alone Christians, buying into his stuff. I don't get it. I think it is toxic. I think it is Well, first of all, I mean talk about speaking to white men. That is John C Maxwell's whole gig. I don't understand how we call that leadership. I don't understand that we don't recognize how toxic a lot of that is. Somehow we have made leadership to be something it's not. On one hand, we say, oh, it's servant leadership, but then, on the other hand, we definitely have to be in power and control. Like you can't have it both ways, and I feel like this narrative has worked its way into churches, it has worked its way into businesses and it certainly has worked its way into families and it justifies toxic behavior and we call it leadership. I don't understand it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, because while it might be respected, it's certainly not respectful Right. It gives people in power a pass to run Rashad over others.

Speaker 2:

And then we feed the narrative when we say, oh, but imagine holding that responsibility. Oh, but imagine being in the public eye. Oh, but imagine how hard the devil is going to work to make that leader fail. Because look at all he's doing for God. What the actual f***? I don't understand. And if that's the type of leadership I see someone buying into, I walk away. I want no part of it.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for spending time with us today. The resources and materials we've mentioned are linked in the show notes and on Facebook at Uncovered Life Beyond.

Speaker 1:

What are your thoughts about college and recovery from high demand religion? We know you have your own questions and experiences and we want to talk about the topics that matter to you. Share them with us at UncoveredLifeBeyond at gmailcom. That's UncoveredLifeBeyond at gmailcom.

Speaker 2:

If you enjoyed today's show and found value in it, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast app. This helps others find the show While you're there. Subscribe to our podcast so you never miss an episode Until next time.

Speaker 1:

Stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward.

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Naomi Clark

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Rebecca Coblentz

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