Uncovered: Life Beyond
Join the conversations of Rebecca and Naomi, two ex-Amish Mennonite women who jumped the proverbial fence in their younger years and later experienced college as first-gen, non-traditional students. They discuss pursuing formal education while raising a family, navigating the hidden curriculum of academia, and other dimensions of reimagining a life beyond high-demand religion. Send your questions to uncoveredlifebeyond@gmail.com.
Uncovered: Life Beyond
17. The Scandal of Women Protesting Patriarchal Click-Bait
The Scandal of Women Protesting Patriarchal Click-Bait
After their unplanned absence, Naomi and Rebecca are back to discuss changes to the podcast, catch up on life, and break down some recent distress expressed online at women taking issue with offensive theology.
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Articles mentioned in the episode:
- Josh Butler Resigns as Pastor Following TGC Article Backlash (Christianity Today)
- Stop Telling Women They’re Crazy (Refinery29)
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This is Rebecca and this is Naomi. We're 40-something moms and first cousins who know what it's like to veer off the path assigned to us.
Speaker 2:We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college and career, as we questioned our faith traditions while exploring new identities and ways of seeing the world.
Speaker 1:Without any maps for either of us to follow. We've had to figure things out as we go and appreciate that detours and dead ends are essential to the path Along the way, we've uncovered a few insights we want to share with fellow travelers.
Speaker 2:We want to talk about the questions we didn't know who to ask and the options we didn't know we had.
Speaker 1:So whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking things up, we are here to cheer you on and assure you that the best is yet to come. Welcome to Uncovered Life Beyond. Well, folks, welcome back to Uncovered Life Beyond. This is Naomi.
Speaker 2:And this is Rebecca. It's kind of hard to believe we're finally back, isn't it?
Speaker 1:I know We've been gone so long. Life got in the way and is it busy? Ever it was, and weeks slipped by, one week after another, and suddenly it's January, the end of January, which just feels crazy. It does, it does, but we still want to do this Absolutely, and I've been listening to podcasts on podcasting and learning about ways we can streamline our process so that it's more sustainable and so that we're not spending hours and hours on editing and planning, on all these other ways that eat up time.
Speaker 2:You know, isn't it funny how we've told people, especially regarding pursuing an education, not to let perfection get in their way. Kind of annoying, isn't it?
Speaker 1:I know, I know that's the theme of all my writing classes, and here we are, here we are. I think one of the things that got in our way, too, was doing research-based episodes, which I think we both love doing, but then it's like writing a research paper every week and turns out that was not sustainable.
Speaker 2:Well, and it's kind of annoying because if you do research then you find more things to research and it becomes a mad trail of research.
Speaker 1:Well, and we didn't stop because we ran out of ideas that our list of ideas for topics just keeps growing and growing, absolutely.
Speaker 1:But if we shift to more personal topics, maybe riffing on things that we've seen written about or heard about here and there, hopefully that will allow us to keep podcasting and then maybe, sometime down the road, we can get back to doing more research-based episodes, absolutely. So, listeners, a major way that you can help us is by giving us feedback on the kind of topics that you're interested in hearing about, and in fact, right now you can go to the show notes. So if you go to the episode description in your podcast player app and look for a link that says Vote for Upcoming Episodes, you'll see a list of topics that we've thought about, and those topics include Girlfriend Chat, about just what's happening in our everyday lives, and that feels a little bit self-indulgent, I'll just say. But at the same time, some of my favorite podcasts are doing just that, and so-.
Speaker 2:Well, and let's face it, we're pretty good therapy for each other, right? So maybe?
Speaker 1:we can just share that's right. See, we can share this therapy. We can have some arm-share therapy for each other. We could do that. It's the best.
Speaker 1:It is College life hacks. Another one that I thought about was Deal Reveal, and that's a take on a feature of the US podcast as a dating and relationships podcast, and they will interpret people's screenshots of text messages right. What's they're going? What's this person, what are they trying to say? I don't understand what's going on in this text message thread.
Speaker 1:So when I think about anyone who makes any kind of cross-cultural transition, or if you're someone who grew up in one kind of culture and then you're going to college, or maybe you're someone who is around college students who are from a different culture and you're wanting to just get a perspective on odd behavior or behavior that might seem odd, or you're not sure how to handle a situation.
Speaker 1:So, navigating divorce, I know when I was going through mine, I was so wishing for Well, I just couldn't believe that in the year 2018, there were so few resources available that it was so hard to find out how to get divorced. And then, as time went on, I realized, oh yeah, and now I understand why people don't talk about it when they're in the middle of it and so. But I think I am far enough away from it and I'm ready to own my story, and it is only my story. Every situation is so different, so unique, but I realize that it might be helpful for people, especially if they're the first in their family to get divorced, or it's the kind of thing where they are feeling alone and are curious about other people's experiences.
Speaker 2:And there's no doubt that there's a lot of religious baggage for all of us wrapped around that topic.
Speaker 1:Exactly, exactly. Another topic is parenting tweens and teens, and you're the expert on that.
Speaker 2:Well you know, the short news is sometimes you just get so damn lucky and I am just so grateful. I just told another friend this week that when I decided to do gentle parenting and honestly I don't think I even really knew what gentle parenting was at that point it was scary, like that was letting go of all the books that had the formulas which I knew didn't work. I had seen evidence of them not working but it was scary pursuing another form of parenting when you're kind of making it up as you go.
Speaker 2:And all I know is I would do it over a thousand times again and for those of you moms that I see killing it out there, like some of you, are gentle parenting in ways I never did and you're doing it so much better than I did and I am just so grateful and I'm so proud of you and I am totally cheering you on because it is so worthwhile when you have adult kids who actually want to spend time with you. One of my adult kids just came home and she's like mom, we need to go see this play. And her and I went and bought tickets. The whole family is going and it's like they want to see it with us, right, right, like I would have never done that with my parents ever Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's amazing. And you do have amazing kids, thank you, I do, and they have an amazing mom.
Speaker 2:Well, they, yeah, they're good kids, they're good kids.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I think there'd be a lot to talk about that, because I think there's a lot of parenting advice or parent discussion about parenting for younger kids. But then, as kids get older, it's harder, right, because they have their own private lives and you don't. You want to respect their privacy, but at the same time, big kids have bigger problems sometimes.
Speaker 2:It's true.
Speaker 1:It's true, rebuilding your social life after a major life transition Right, that's hard. I mean that could be a move. It could be leaving a church. A religious transition, A religious transition, leaving a religious community. It could be well starting college, since that's the theme of our podcast. It could be divorce. Oh, my goodness, I had no idea how much divorce would impact. Oh, I had some idea, but you just never know how these kinds of things will impact your social life Establishing a career, and I think even deconstruction.
Speaker 2:I think people are kind of surprised. I know I was. All of a sudden you find yourself in the middle of deconstruction. You didn't even know it was going to happen. But here we are and it totally screws up relationships.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, everything gets thrown in the air and it's hard to know where things are going to land, right, yeah, especially when your context up to that point has been one where everything is certain and everything is very clearly defined.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, establishing a career in midlife or making a career transition in midlife we know a little bit about that, making sense of tricky relationships with loved ones, and there's so many other things we could add to the list. So, listeners, if you would be so kind as to click on that link in the show notes and let us know what you think, let us know what your top two choices are, we would be so, so grateful. Please don't be shy. There will be a place you can add details if you want to go into detail about what your thoughts are. But just know we'll protect your anonymity, we will protect your dignity and we'll just be really grateful for you to give that feedback. We certainly don't have all the answers and who does? But we want this podcast to be a place where we can talk about the thorny questions and awkward situations that don't make for great small talk when you run into someone at the grocery store or in the car line at school.
Speaker 2:And even those questions that feel dangerous to ask.
Speaker 1:Right, like they might be offensive to someone. They might bring up things that bring up a lot of tension, right yeah, and the consequences might be tricky, yeah.
Speaker 2:And sometimes I just think making sense of all of that can be so difficult. But sometimes I think the things we don't talk about grow and then when you finally acknowledge it, it kind of takes the power out of the fear, right? Or the yeah, it removes the power Right.
Speaker 1:And also things that feel shameful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, often they just suddenly don't seem to be that big a deal after you voice them, so the kind of amazing how so often the things we feel shameful or fearful about is something that we as humans kind of tend to share and we think we're the only ones caught in the middle of it when it's like, yeah, no, you're just being the one who's honest enough to ask about it.
Speaker 1:That's right, all right. Well, what's been going on in your life this last week? Maybe we should catch up on what's been happening.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness, this past week has been a doozy for me, but it's been also good. So you, naomi, have heard about all my fears about whether I'm taking on too many college classes this semester and if I should ditch a class or if I should suck it up and keep doing it. And if I do ditch a class, which class I should ditch. So you know, the real estate in my brain is a mess some days.
Speaker 1:Too many tabs open.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly Exactly. So that's been going on. As of this morning I decided I'm not going to ditch any classes, but I still have two days to live with that decision, so we'll see. Right now I am taking 12 credit hours and then I have three more credit hours that will be opening up in the middle of the semester.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you know, along with everything else, along with everything else you're doing, yeah, yeah, that's a lot, that's a lot.
Speaker 2:And both my college students surprised me with a visit home this weekend, which was fun, I know, right, I'm like wait, I didn't know you were coming, but I was delighted and you know it's really cool. So I've got a beautiful variety and blend of people in my life and I kind of realized that I was spending a lot of energy worrying about people and just wanting to make sure I check in with them and make sure they're okay, and you know all that jazz and you are amazing at that.
Speaker 1:I don't know how you do it, but that's awesome.
Speaker 2:Well, again, the real estate in my brain. So I decided Matt and I were talking and I decided that I'm going to try, like about every other week or so, to have a party and just invite all these people and they can come and get to know each other, their networks can grow and I can just check in with everyone, make sure everyone's doing good. But the cool thing about it, I realized last night we had a party here. I realized there were four languages represented here. Isn't that kind of cool?
Speaker 1:Wow, that's amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's wonderful. I just think it's so cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great. I love that idea about expanding networks. That's a great way to really help other people get more connected with others in the community or just help people expand their own networks.
Speaker 2:That's great Agreed. What have you been up to, naomi?
Speaker 1:Well, the last few weeks we had this whole month is kind of all run together. First there was bad weather, the first bad weather. Oh gosh, so much bad weather, so much bad weather. It was the first week of school. So it was like you make a plan for school and then you get weather and then all the plans change. So figuring out my school and the children's school and all that was it was a puzzle that we had to put together all over again. Every day it felt like I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1:Things have settled down now, so that's good. But I realized that I hit the other side of that sweet spot in Raising Kids, where those years when they're not tiny anymore but also they don't have a lot of involvements like extracurriculars. Well, I am seeing, are we having so much puddles here? Mine now have all the extracurriculars, and I say they have all the extracurriculars. It's really not that much compared to a lot of kids, but it feels like a lot.
Speaker 1:Feel like you're driving a taxi cab, absolutely, and well, not every evening, but lots of evenings, I don't know what. Who is going to need to be driven where? And the thing is like, yeah, I'd rather have my children at their friend's house interacting with other people rather than sitting playing video games. I'd rather have them skateboarding or doing you know whatever that's active rather than just being sedentary at home. But at the same time then that means I spend all evening, or it feels like it spend all evening driving around. So that's been fun. My daughter was in a contest, a speech drama contest, last weekend and they made a video. Her group made a video and it was kind of a Jumanji premise. It was this group of students are playing a board game and then they have this kind of Jumanji experience and my daughter plays the serial murder, serial killer. Oh my God she was amazing.
Speaker 1:She was amazing. So they've got regionals this upcoming weekend and then state after that. So at work, things are going well. I am not keeping up with my inbox, my to-do list is never done, but these days I'm enjoying teaching as much as ever. I'm trying some new approaches to grading and that overall seems to be going well and so well. I was telling someone recently that I'm falling behind more than ever, but my mental health is better too. So Imagine that. I think to some degree I've realized, you know, I can't fix this. I cannot life hack my way out of a situation where I'm trying to be two or three different places at the same time. There's no life hack to fix that.
Speaker 2:So sometimes it's not you that's broken, it's the system. Actually, oftentimes that's the case Absolutely, and we are taught to try to life hack the crap out of it when it's like you know I'm doing all the things and I can't. And I have no doubt that you are like a God sent professor to your students and I love the way you engage with them.
Speaker 1:And I'm like oh well, that's very sweet, I have some, I really have some awesome students, and I am not a naturally gifted teacher or, you know, lecturer, I am not an entertainer by any stretch. I feel like teaching has just always been hard, and only like in the last year or so I've really started to enjoy it, and so I'm really glad. I'm really glad to be here, even though I yeah this, I at the same time, there's a sense of resignation that some things just can't be fixed. Hey, nothing's on fire, nothing's on fire, nobody's dying, and so it might not be perfect, but here we are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and sometimes, instead of focusing on what didn't happen or what went wrong, I just let myself think about all the things I did get right and it's like, yeah, you know, it's okay.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:If we're doing an 85%, hey, we can take it.
Speaker 1:That's right, absolutely, absolutely. So yeah, so that's, that's been my life.
Speaker 2:Single moms are amazing. The end.
Speaker 1:Well, it's not easy for anybody these days, and that's true. So, rebecca, I understand you've been coming across some interesting online discussions you'd like to talk about today.
Speaker 2:Oh, this is a hot topic for me. So I think it was last fall when it first hit my radar and no, my goodness, it was last spring when this first hit my radar. So it's been, it's been, it's been there on the and this is. This is an evangelical conversation that's being had, and what's frightening is it's it's the progressive evangelicals that are pushing this, which I think makes it even more frightening. And this conversation isn't necessarily new theology, it's it's old theology actually that I think we should give a proper death and funeral to. I mean, it's just bad theology, or how old it is. It's bad theology. But what it's about is this attempt to make our relationship with God erotic. It's like this attempt to sexualize and and create more passion, and not just a. You know, in the 90s I think it was Petra that had a song about being all fired up for God, and I'm sure every other Christian rock group had songs about being fired up for God. But this is worship.
Speaker 1:Music is full of it.
Speaker 2:Right. But this is taking it to another level, and and and I'll read some of the quotes but one of the popular magazines released an article from an author who had kind of dove into some of this old theology and was trying to put a fresh, new spin on it. And the, the, the organization he works for, has a I mean, I think he didn't just work from, I believe he was like a leader in this organization put out a part of a chapter that he had written from his new book, and some of the language read like this let me just read one paragraph. So the title of the article was Sex Won't Save you, but it points to the one who will. And he offered all kinds of descriptions of sexual, sexual intercourse, but but they were presented and compared to a spiritual relationship with God. It was, it was bizarre. And one phrase he wrote. So I'm just going to read this for starters she, the wife, gladly receives the warmth of his presence and accepts the sacrificial offering he bestows upon the altar within her most holy place. Similarly, the church embraces Christ in salvation, celebrating his arrival with joy and delight. So we are comparing a man's pleasure like literally his pleasure. That, I would point out has been that women have had to bear abuse for for centuries. But we're comparing his pleasure to what Christ has done for us and we're doing this like in all seriousness.
Speaker 2:So the outcry was pretty fast and quick and there were two main leaders I followed who were fiercely defending this article. And the one was a male leader or was a Mennonite leader. He perceives himself to kind of be the moderator at at meshing the nuances of evangelical life and Anabaptist, like he considers himself to be able to embrace all the nuances there. And this Mennonite writer I would not necessarily consider to be a bad person. I do think he's misguided and I think it's easy maybe for male leaders to be a bit more confident than what they possibly should be. So this Mennonite leader was adamantly defending this article and on his Facebook page there were abuse victims coming in and they are literally bleeding out on his page and they're like this is wrong, this is not okay, this is bad. This is like endorsing the abuse we have literally experienced in your church. Like this is not good. He comes back and tells his followers that were pushing back against it that they were prudes, which is a horrible thing to tell someone who's been abused and plus, we women can never be quite sexy enough or we're too sexy. I mean, it's one or the other, take your pick, we can't get it right. And then he also left victims know that because they were traumatized from their abuse. This was just them responding from their triggers, so they couldn't be taken seriously.
Speaker 2:So the original people who posted this article finally came back and said well, you guys need more context. You know, the writing is good, it's wonderful, you just need more context. And they printed another piece which would be made it worse. People came back and we're like, hey, this is even worse. Like what are you doing? What are you doing? At some point the author's employer took down the post, both posts. He resigned from both his pastorial responsibilities and the organization. But then the people who were defending him, including this Mennonite leader, came back and said you know what was worse than his writings? It was the mob of people who took issue with it.
Speaker 1:You know, isn't it funny how free speech can be so important when we're talking about some people speaking, and then, when it's other people speaking, it's a bad thing, right, and it's this and when it's men being held accountable for their behavior, that's when it's irrational, that's when it's unacceptable.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly, and I think, my biggest frustration with this. Actually, there's so many things, but let's start with this. For so many of us who've experienced abuse, we've been told over and over that we can't be trusted. We've been told that we can't speak because of our triggers. We're obviously not healed. However, time and time and time again, men who have committed sins many different variations of sin, but anything from porn to abuse to even serving time in prison for their sins these men invariably are able to come back and we hang onto their every word. We accept them as leaders. We never tell them that, because of their triggers, that they're not trustworthy, and I'm always kind of curious how it is that we would rather give the abuser a platform in our communities as opposed to giving a space for those they've abused and harmed.
Speaker 1:Someone who's been harmed, speaking up about it is more offensive than the abuse that was done to them.
Speaker 2:Right, and I will be the first to acknowledge I have my own concerns with some of the advocacy groups that have been popping up.
Speaker 1:I'm watching those In plain communities. Yeah, is that what you're talking about?
Speaker 2:specifically. Okay, yeah, those are the ones I've been watching and I'll be the first to admit I have my concerns. I think maybe it's easy for people to get two minutes of therapy and, about the time it starts getting really messy, decide they're healed. And I wonder if advocacy groups, advocacy leaders, should not be inconsistent therapy. But neither do I think I don't know. I honestly don't know how to reconcile some of my concerns with advocacy groups, with the blatant disregard and how easily we embrace the very men who have done the harm, that we need these advocacy groups. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Is it that the climate in which some advocacy groups function make it so it's so hard for their concerns to be recognized that it I don't really have words for it it kind of comes out sideways, maybe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I wonder what would happen if we would make these advocacy groups work so hard to be taken seriously.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Yes, I mean.
Speaker 1:Yes, right, right, because then if that puts them in a position of defensiveness, right, it never lets them really completely heal. I mean, when you are in a posture of defensiveness like that is just not a good place psychologically, when you're there indefinitely.
Speaker 2:But so this Mennonite leader literally came on and called the people who were bleeding out on his page. He called him prudes. He told them they couldn't be trusted because of their triggers. But he very openly speaks about his trauma and his past porn issues and considers himself to be an expert by his very own math. By the math he's doing, he should be the last person we take seriously concerning porn issues and sexuality and sexuality. And again he is back again this week with another article talking about how an erotic relationship with God will save us spiritually.
Speaker 1:You know, it just seems to me, when people can't accept their sexuality, can't accept that they are just human beings and being sexual is part of it, and when they have to repress that, repress that, repress that within a culture, it comes out sideways Because you can't actually change who you are. You're still human. And it comes out sideways in this kind of bizarre theology and harmful theology.
Speaker 2:Right and I also think about. I was completely unprepared for it, but in my early days of therapy I had therapists question whether my parents were alcoholic and I'm like, oh my word, no, we would never drink or even hang out with people who did Like. That is insanity. And that's when I learned about dry alcoholics and the fact that you can be an alcoholic but substitute it. And my parents just got their fix with God. It gave them power, it gave them an escape, and I worry that this language allows abusers, it allows those with addictions, to simply transfer their abuse and their addictions and it gives them spiritual language for it.
Speaker 1:Right, because the issue is less the substance that's being abused, right, or whether we're talking alcohol or religion or whatever, but it's about needing an escape from the pain. That is unbearable, and the problem with addictive behaviors is when that practice is causing pain, but we keep doing it, right? So, even though our religion or substance of choice or eating, I mean, I'll raise my hand to that one, you know, it's about numbing the pain of life, because life can suck, life can be really painful, and it's about, instead of facing that. And there are very real reasons why people have trouble with that, right. So I don't mean that in a judgmental way, but it creates problems and that's when, when it's causing harm. Whether we're talking about a substance or we're talking about religion, or we're talking about whatever workaholism, the problem is that it's used as an escape to escape pain that we refuse to acknowledge.
Speaker 2:And I think it is also, in the Christian world, a way to bypass being honest about what is really haunting us. We are very quick to judge sin and the people in it, and honest conversations regarding it don't service well. So if you can find a way to spiritualize your sin, it provides.
Speaker 1:Or whatever thing you want to promote.
Speaker 2:If you can find a way to spiritualize whatever the thing, your hobby horse happens to be Right and if you've got just a little bit of charisma and the right family behind you, I mean, you know, all the things match up, people will buy it. And something that I'm learning, that I'm trying to learn, is this what if I don't need to spiritualize anything? What if it just is Right? What if I don't have to be an expert in all things? And what if, if I see someone who's trying to be an expert in all things, I step back because it's impossible for someone to be an expert in all things? I mean, seriously, naomi, you know how much therapy I've been through. I mean, I'm kind of angry about how much therapy I've sat through. I'm still not an expert. But yet these men believe themselves to be expert on abuse, on addictions and certainly on the way God sees them.
Speaker 1:Well, when we see God as a man, we'll start to see man as God, as someone said. It's true. I think it's interesting how often the view that is considered biased is the view that's different from that of a white, middle class male, and there's this idea that men aren't emotional, women or the ones who are emotional, or that men aren't triggered.
Speaker 2:It's the women who are triggered. Oh right, Right Right. Like you know, most of us abused victims, we know we're triggered, we recognize our triggers. It's the people who don't even acknowledge that they have triggers that are kind of screwing it up for the rest of us, Like let's be real here.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, if I can read something that I found here, this is a quote from a Refinery29 article. Abraham Morgantaller, md, the director of men's health, boston and author of Testosterone for Life, says men and their moods are clearly hormonal. Their hormones just don't cycle as regularly as women do. And so talking about this thing of how women are often spoken of as being hormonal, as though men don't have hormones when actually they do, or when women are emotional and men don't have emotions and the article goes on to say just look at sports.
Speaker 1:Men express a wide range of very intense emotions during sporting events, and the whole sports section in the newspaper is nothing but feelings, but those feelings are not labeled or even recognized as emotion. Dudes get to scream at each other, start fights at stadiums and somehow still avoid the label of being crazy. Everyone shows emotions, but not everyone is labeled as emotional, and I think, when that is so normal, we internalize women specifically tend to internalize this and we see ourselves as being emotional. In fact, there's been research that's done on this that says that the further women get from an event like, as more time goes by, the more likely she will assume that she was more emotional than she actually was.
Speaker 1:And the more likely a man will assume he was less emotional, and this is the thing where women internalize it too. So this is not a man versus a woman thing. This is a patriarchy thing. It's a system, that's a way of seeing the world that half of society is unreliable. Half of society is triggered, triggered right and is the temptress, and the other half is the representation of God.
Speaker 2:Right, right. So my understanding is that a lot of this erotic religious theology is kind of based in the Catholic Church, and I would like to point out how that maybe hasn't served them real well. We all know that the Catholic Church is deep into abuse problems. And Amy Peeler wrote we can rightly look at God as husband and God as father without making male sexuality divine. And I think I believe that so many of our conversations need to change. I think our conversations about addiction, trauma, religion, who God is and isn't sex, absolutely all of those need to change, and I don't think the answer is in making it more erotic. We have plenty. I mean, when I think of erotic, I think of driving down 1115 towards Harrisburg in Pennsylvania. There is all the erotic there that you need, all the whole peep shows. Exactly, I have never heard anyone who considered themselves to be living a whole and full life refer to it as an erotic experience.
Speaker 2:Refer to their religious experience even just would Richard Rohr refer to his? I mean, like when I think of Richard Rohr, I think of someone who has seriously walked the path of attempting to hold nuance and growth and God and faith and evil and good. I mean, when I think of Richard Rohr he's kind of the role model for me in all of that. He doesn't need to refer to anything as erotic or to be real.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's almost like clickbait. Yeah, you have to wonder if some of these publishing houses and content creators if you want to call them that at what point are some of their really offensive ideas about clickbait and creating controversy? Because that's what the internet runs on Right, it runs on controversy. It runs on getting people stirred up, and that's how you make money on the internet is by creating controversy. Not that there's any shortage of offensive religious beliefs out there. There's plenty out there. Like do these people even really believe what they're saying? Are they being sensational just to get an audience? I think there's both.
Speaker 2:I think there's those that might be being sensational, but I think they have followers who buy into it and then become leaders. Do you think Bill Gauthard believed all his nonsense?
Speaker 1:Not for himself. It was good for other people, not for himself, and isn't that the way harmful theology grows Like?
Speaker 2:sometimes I hear something and I'm like and who bought into that? I mean something that has there's ideas and there's theology that has grown and has taken validity in people's minds and I can't help but think who sold that and who the heck bought?
Speaker 1:it, and I think one of the important takeaways from talking about this kind of imagery is that those of us who find ourselves in the delegitimized group here in these conversations, those of us who are considered the mob Right right, the ones who speak up and darehold someone in power accountable.
Speaker 1:We've got to believe our own experience, and doubting our experience, assuming that just because someone has a platform they know what they're talking about, is so, so dangerous. And I mean, the older I get, the more convinced of this I am. And if there's one piece of advice I could give my younger self, it would be believe what you see, believe what's right in front of you, believe what people do, not what they say, and believe your own experience.
Speaker 2:And can I just point out how funny it is for a Mennonite leader to be buying into Catholic theology.
Speaker 1:You know, it's amazing what we will accept when it serves our purposes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean our forefathers would be rolling over in their graves if they knew. But yes, to your point believe yourselves. And that doesn't mean to not seek outside opinions advice, right right To be curious about other people's experiences, or even your own.
Speaker 1:Right, right, my experience doesn't mean it's the universal experience, right, and so by saying believe your own experience, it doesn't mean believe that it's the truth for everyone, but believe that it happened to you. Right and be, but also be curious about what other people have experienced Right, and don't assume that just because someone has a platform, that they've been vetted.
Speaker 2:And also believe that your perception and your experience of the divine is as legitimate as any man standing in the pulpit. We have, for decades, believed the version of God that white men have sold to us, and I think it is way past time to understand that our experience and what we know of God is just as important, valuable, true, as what many, many preachers will try to present to you.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I think that is the perfect way to wrap this up. So, listeners, what potentially offensive topic should we talk about next? Bring it on.
Speaker 2:We're here for all of it.
Speaker 1:Click the link in the show notes and let us know what you think, and we'll see you next time.
Speaker 2:Thank you for spending time with us today. The resources and materials we've mentioned are linked in the show notes and on Facebook at Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 1:What are your thoughts about college and recovery from high demand religion? We know you have your own questions and experiences and we want to talk about the topics that matter to you. Share them with us at UncoveredLifeBeyond at gmailcom. That's UncoveredLifeBeyond at gmailcom.
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Speaker 1:Until next time stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward.
